These Stupid Titles V

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

see, the very fact that you think that DTRs are necessary and or desirable shows that you think 100% different than a guy.

To a guy, you talk about marriage, dating, how long till either it will be, etc, when it comes up. You don't call a special meeting, open with a prayer and a hymn, and pass around refreshments at the end (i mean, preferably, the refreshments are omni-present). Girls want this ultra-formalized, and frankly, that scares a lot of guys. Don't PLAN on a DTR -- avoid them altogether if possible.

[Chimera]

Don't PLAN on a DTR -- avoid them altogether if possible.

But then that is just ignoring what the girl wants in favor of what the guy wants, not coming to a compromise.

[Entsuropi]

I think what SE is saying is that what the guy wants is to not have to use his 'i'm concerned and thinking hard about what you are saying' face for more than 5 minutes at a time.

[Chimera]

 
Okay, I'll give you that, no one wants sore face muscles.

But I don't think avoiding any discussion is the way to communicate effectively. Neither person is a mind-reader--you have to vocalize what you are thinking occasionally.

Not all the time of course. Even I don't want to discuss serious things all the time. Have you seen some of my posts? I like to joke around a lot, to be silly and frivolous, to laugh. But I don't think that never having a DTR is a solution.

[Archon]

DTR

?
Dead to Rights? Death to Ribonucleic acid? Down to Raleigh?

[Chimera]

To a guy, you talk about marriage, dating, how long till either it will be, etc, when it comes up. You don't call a special meeting, open with a prayer and a hymn, and pass around refreshments at the end (i mean, preferably, the refreshments are omni-present). Girls want this ultra-formalized, and frankly, that scares a lot of guys. Don't PLAN on a DTR -- avoid them altogether if possible.

I just reread your post SE and I want to make sure that I am being clear.

I don't formally "plan" a DTR with a prayer and hymn and refreshments and so forth.   But if I have a concern, I like to think about it ahead of time, and make sure that I understand it from a rational point of view. If it makes sense rationally, I know that I am not being petty and petulant and overly emotional (as I, like many females, can sometimes be). If it doesn't make sense rationally, then I will re-evaluate my feelings and whether or not it needs to be brought up with EUOL at all. That is the "planning" I do ahead of time, the converstation points I bring up in my mind before I even vocalize anything to EUOL.

see, the very fact that you think that DTRs are necessary and or desirable shows that you think 100% different than a guy.

I agree with you on this completely. Men and women think differently. Men tend to think very logically--EUOL in particular. Women tend to (notice the disclaimers here, I'm not making definitive statements but observations) think emotionally. If I want EUOL to understand my emotions (which are not always logical), then I need to present them in a way that makes sense to his logical mind. Only when we understand where each of us is coming from can we deal with the issue. And issues come up all the time, even in healthy relationships. Some are very minor, and some are more major. Ignoring my concerns, though, only makes me feel resentful and misunderstood--until I remind myself that EUOL can't know what I am thinking unless I tell him plainly. Very plainly.  

And Entropy.--if you see that as manipulation, then I don't know how to counter that.

[Chimera]

DTR is a Utah/Mormon term for "Define The Relationship"--a talk in which you discuss aspects of your relationship. Usually people associate this with girls wanting to do it too much and guys fleeing at even the mention of the word.

[stacer]

I was just talking about regular conversation, myself. DTRs are a whole 'nother matter. And I agree with Chimera on them.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

why does needing to share your feelings have to translate into an ultra-serious production? Why does it always have to leave everyone exhausted?

Why does it have to be so significant it needs a label other than conversation?

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

again, let me be clear. I did not ever say, or imply, that we should never talk about feelings. I resent the ritual that girls surround such conversation with, and I think it feels manipulative and often accusatory to guys. And that's why I'm against something called a DTR.

[Chimera]

Okay, then let's not call it that. No labels--just conversation.

But I still maintain that guys and girls think and communicate differently, and that is why communication strategies are helpful. I don't think that using strategies, like thinking about what you are going to say ahead of time, is manipulative. I have to do that with my parents as well, because they think entirely differently than I do.

[stacer]

Personally, I don't make it a big production. It's just a quiet talk. But I've thought about what I wanted to say because things have come to a point where you have to say something more clearly, usually. I usually figure that if there's a need for a DTR, one or the other person isn't really "there" in a relationship, so it's really a break-up talk (even if it isn't officially a relationship). It a defining that it isn't a relationship, basically. I've had a lot of success in the early parts of relationships to just use hints and suggestions effectively to express my interest--if the guy picks up on it, I assume mutual interest, and if not, then not. The problem comes when he shows the signs of mutual interest but there's other things going on, mixed signals. It depends on the level of friendship already there whether it deserves a DTR or just to drop it cold. If you're already friends with the person, the best way to preserve the friendship is to DTR, I think, clear the air, allow feelings to heal.

[Chimera]

I guess the problem I am seeing in this discussion is how we use the term DTR. Apparently we are not communicating effectively in this communication about communication effectively.   J/K

I use the term loosely. I use it to mean any aspect of a relationship, not only life-altering decisions. I believe (catch the disclaimer again) stacer and SE are using it to mean some painful, long, drawn-out and emotional discussion that determines whether or not you will stay together. Sometimes you just have to discuss something small but important. Does that count as a DTR? I don't know.

For example, there are times when EUOL has said something that hurt my feelings. I *know* in my heart that he is not purposely trying to hurt me. I *know* I can be overly sensitive. I *know* that there are times that I infer something from the words EUOL used that he was not implying. We all do! So I feel a need to bring it up in another conversation. Otherwise, he has no idea that I am feeling hurt. How can he, unless I tell him? He may be powerful, but he's not a mindreader!

But before I tell him that what he said hurt me, I like to think it through very carefully, to make sure I am not being irrational. Because you are both right--too much examination of the relationship is not healthy. So I have to ask myself, "Is this worth bringing up? Is this a valid concern? Will it help or hurt the relationship?" Because there has to be a balance of letting the relationship grow naturally and examining it to see if it needs more fertilizer or water or sun.

But, in this case, you can't give the plant what it wants unless the plant tells you. But, wait, no--now I'm the plant, when I meant the relationship was a plant.

Never mind. Ignore what I said about plants. It's gotten all convoluted. Stupid metaphor!

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

That's *not* a DTR, it doesn't even fit the description. A DTR is a conversation where you establish if you should stay together, why you're together, what kind of future you have together, what your friends are saying, etc.

Telling someone they (maybe inadvertantly) hurt your feelings is not a DTR. Or else most discussions are DTRs

Anyway, just tell EUOL I want a title before i become an 87

[stacer]

I guess the problem I am seeing in this discussion is how we use the term DTR. Apparently we are not communicating effectively in this communication about communication effectively.   J/K

Metacommunication.