Nudity on tv

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Got you!
But seriously why is some nudity good and some bad?
Almost five years ago Diet Coke played a commercial in the superbowl featuring a construction worker stripped to the waist with sweat dripping off of him while women all gather around to watch him. This year Janet showed her breast during the halftime show. I fail to see the fundimental difference between a womans breast and a mans... besides maybe the argument that its usually a little bigger. The thing is size isn't what matters,... Chris Farley loved taking his shirt off to the horror and delight of Saturday Night live fans and he had big pendulous breasts. Are women breastfeeding somehow evil or disgusting? I dont thinks so The issue isn't one of nipples as sex organs either. Mens do pretty much the same stuff that womens do (in rare cases some men can even produce breastmilk) they get hard when they get cold, or a person is excited, but hey if an involuntary reaction is the problem the blushing shouldnt be on TV either. Its not like sex is all that taboo anymore, women shampooing their hair can have an Organic experience as they writhe around screaming like Meg Ryan in when Harry Met Sally. I found plent of other things to be offended by this superbowl and Janets Mammeries werent on the list... on top for me would be the hundreds of adds for legal drugs and mood altering substances and their trashy idiotic themes. Doesn't anyone find a flatulent horse absolutely disgusting? Or how about Jessica Simpson in anything just wrong?

In conclusion... the FCC may be right or wrong for persuing a witless flashing duo when Joe public knows that either singer/ performer wouldn't take a bowel movement without approval from the network planning the halftime show, but is a womans naked breat neccisarily nudity.
I think they should do something more useful,... like declarinng any movie starring Rob Schnider a crime against humanity.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I completely disagree. Though I wish the Washington post would just shut the heck up about Janet Jackson (and by extention, everyone else too, including all the idiots who make jokes about how the media won't shut up about it).

A woman's breast always has been more sexually oriented than a man's. Nuff said (though we can go into the biology of it if you want).

Rather than just accepting the gross stuff, how about cutting the offensive stuff rather than allowing more stuff. That seems to make much more sense to me.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

always is a pretty strong word... keeping in mind that I did pretty well in anthropology there are plenty of other cultures where the nakedness of a human breast is not an issue at all ... you might call them primative cultures but they are actually quite complex. Its not like she lifted up her skirt and showed her naked pudendum, or had live sex on the stage. Would you yell at a woman nursing in public to put her breast away because it was obscene? We choose to make breasts sex object in our culture, even though they have no real sexual function except in the nuturing of the human child)
They happen to be an erogonus zone for both males and females but so is the back of the neck, the knee, the small of the back the wrists the lips the eyelids and the stomach. All of those other places are perfectly acceptable to show, but not an exposed breast?

Im afraid that I have to disagree with you as well. I see nothing obscene about a womans breast and
I didnt find what happened to be offensive or gross at all... except maybe the lying about whos to blame for what and making a bigger deal of it than it should be.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

the fact is, Jeffe, even by your own admission in the last post, made the female breast a sexual object. The show in question was shown in OUR culture, not some culture where it is a non-sexual anatomical location. It was done to show that sexuality and for no other immediate reason (the ultimate goal being the raising of ratings and publicity).

And no, I wouldn't yell at the woman. But I would ask her to cover up if she hadn't shown the modesty to do so in the first place.

No, I don't think a bare-chested man is modest. That's why I wear a shirt in public and find it appropriate for everyone to do so. But I do believe a shirtless woman considerably more sexual than a man. It's irrelevant whether that's a cultural formation or not. Culture is, after all, a part of reality. It's how we agree as a group to work together.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Yes we made it taboo... but its a silly taboo, that happens to be sexist and opressive. If Justin Timberlake had appeared on stage naked to the waist no one would have said anything. If janet had ripped off his top no one would have said anything. Sorry but even though its culturally unacceptable for a woman to be bare chested it doesn't make that right. Untill 50 years ago it was culturally unnacceptable for a black person to vote, did that make it right?

[fuzzyoctopus]

Eric posted that picture of himself with his shirt off though.

[fuzzyoctopus]

Jeffe:  If men didn't have to PAY to see women's breasts, where would the industry be?

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Frankly, I think what you're arguing is silly. If it's sexist and oppressive, start a modesty campaign instead of fighting for the immorality of the culture. it frightens me much more that we might allow nudity in public than the possibility that only some might be allowed to. i don't find it comparable to racist voting laws in any way. If anything, the cultural morays against women going half naked in public is a relief that they won't be pressured to be immodest. If men had more taboos like that, there would be less immodesty.

And I did NOT post a link to that picture of myself. I put it on my OWN webspace in a folder with no security on it. I did not link to the folder. Spriggan browsed around and found the folder. HE posted a link to the picture. I suppose there's some guilt in taking the picture in the first place, but I was young and stupid.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

why would I start a modesty campaign to get someone to do something I dont belive in... I think thats silly. I dont think people should be forced to cover their bodies just because other people dont like it... whats next " I'm sorry sir you cant wear plaid because its unflattering, that will be a thousand dollar fine."
Im sorry Eric but I dont know how you cant see a parallel between a culture thinking that one activity is ok for one group of people and not ok for another then I dont know how to put it. I guess I can give you another example that is more directly related to the subject at hand. 50 years ago women didnt wear pants... women who wore pants we considered "loose" they were shunned, made fun of and socially ostracised. 25 years before that it was illegal in many places for a woman to wear pants and 25 years before that women couldn't even vote or go to college.  
So if no one had ever fought that cultural mindset, women would be at home birthing babies and wearing floor length dresses designed to hide absolutely everything from view and anyone who deviated from that ideal would be thrown in jail or fined.

What frightens me is that its acceptable and legal for one minority to get away with a certain behavior but unacceptable and illegal for anther group to do the same.

As for men taking advantage of women who dont wear shirts, come on women get taken advantage of every day without their clothing coming into question. Does a woman who wears a slinky outfit out on a date with her boyfriend ask to be raped on her way home. Did the clothes do it?  

[fuzzyoctopus]

This is an old boring argument that gets nowhere.  

Find something more worthwhile to write about, Jeffe.   There are lot more causes in this world to complain about when it comes to inequality.  Why don't we start with getting equal pay for women instead of them earning 60 cents to each dollar a man makes?  Why don't we worry about getting national health care that makes insurance pay for birthcontrol as well as viagra, and mammograms every year.  Problems that could actually BE SOLVED, instead of ranting that you can't get millions of people to agree with your views on what's moral.

THEN you can whine about how it's sooo horrible that women can't go around naked.

[EUOL]

I actually think Jeffe has a valid point--I just happen to disagree with it.

Is there anything inherently wrong with an exposed female breast?  I would say no.  In fact, I believe you could extend this to saying that nudity in general.  If nothing else is brought to it, is not wrong.  The problem lies in what is added to the situation externally--i.e., by those who view the event.

An example that is a bit less emotionally charged:  Let us look at swearing.  Is there anything wrong with the constructions of sounds that make certain swear words?   Are certain swear words any more vulgar than their synonyms?  Why can we say 'crap' when we (or, some of us) hesitate to say another word that means exactly the same thing?

Jeffe would probably say it is 'silly' that someone would say one but not the other.  I don't think it is that simple.  While the detonated meanings are the same, the connotation of one is very different from the other.  The word you choose says something about you as a person, and so I choose to say the one that creates one image of me in someone's mind as opposed to the other.  

Men and women are different biologically.  Men, being more visual, are more likely to sexualize a specific piece of the body.  For those of us who believe in a divine law of morality, this sexualization is bad.  Like the swearing--where I decide not to use a certain word because of the way others will react--it is up to the woman to decide how she will act, knowing how men will respond.  

Perhaps it's unfair that women must change their behavior because men are biologically hardwired to respond in certain ways.  However, it's all about helping each other to succeed.  Perhaps it is better, as SE said, for everyone to go around with shirts on.  However, I would personally rather that the ladies be especially careful to keep theirs on.

[fuzzyoctopus]

All right I'll say something useful.  It annoys me that men are the only ones I hear complaining about this.  Even if women can go around naked, it doesn't mean they want to.   Listening to a bunch of men say it sounds really stupid, as I can't imagine that none of them are without ulterior motive.

In a different world/society, (moral issues aside) I wouldn't mind walking around in a bra and nothing else if it comes down to it - but since you're not female, you don't know what it's like to have breasts.  Unless you have particularly small breasts, it's not comfortable to go around without a bra on very often.

Also add that if you wanted it to be ok to let women go around naked, you would have to change the nature of EVERY SINGLE MALE on the planet.  It's not practical, dude. I'm not just talking rape, or being groped by strangers  who think that nudity is an invitation- I'm talking about car crashes, losses in productivity, society-changing things.  Even if it were common practice for women to go around topless, you CANNOT tell me that men would still stare.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Saint, first of al dont get mad because I mean this in the nicest possible way. I cant belive you would tell a woman breastfeeding to be more modest. She's feeding her kid, the way god meant her to. Do you want her to make the kid wait to eat untill she can hide from your prying eyes?

Fuzzy I really think you misunderstood me im not trying to advocate that women have to walk around naked, but that they should have the same right to walk around naked as men.  Your right to say that equal wages are a more important issue, but studies have hown that that  gender gap has been slowly but surely closing in most areas of the country. I have been trying to help get a nationalized health care plan that pays for more operations, birth control and other things for people.

To say that men everywhere have an obsession with the female breast simply isn't true. In cultures where men are breastfed in childhood the fascination with breasts is virtually non existant. In cultures where the breast is uncovered the breast is not a sex object. So I wouldnt say men are neccisarilly hardwired that way if other places show us that they can ignore that part of the anatomy or at least not get excited by it. The argument that men just cant help it amounts to a "mea culpa, but with exterranious circumstances argument" the fact is a human being can control his or her behavior.
Remember guys in the 1800's sexualized the ankle because they couldn't see it (always covered) and pictures of women with their skirts raised just above the shin were the hustler and penthouse photographs of the age. People got hot and bothered by ankles. How do you feel about the ankle today? Men obsess about breasts in this country because when we see them on tv and in movies they are put on display and kept under wraps. Your supposed to want them desire them, thats why they're barely covered (ohhh forbidden) or displayed like fruit at a grocery store. When I was in Bonaire, or Aruba it was not uncommon to see women walking around without their tops. The only people that seemed to obsess about their lack of clothing were Americans. The locals just thought it made sense, the french and dutch tourists respected the womans right to her body and the germans, well they're just as polite and respectful as they can be. In short no the men didn't stare any more than they would normally if the women had been covered up.

Its not like society doesn't tell us that it is ok to show these things in a limited way... http://www.victoriassecret.com/ with gel bras, and push ups and slinky little teddies. So whats more worng?

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Jeffe, I don't know HOW you want me to take that paragraph except to think you find me a rude barbarian with no cooth. Fine, think that. But yes, I would ask her to COVER WITH A BLANKET like most women do when they need to breast feed in public. Not wait off. Stop portraying me as some sort of monster who finds it better to starve a child than be immodest

Breast have been a sexual object in our society for THOUSANDS of years. For example, the song of Solomon, which is at least 3000 years old, discusses it this way. WHile I feel this is enough (western society is usually described as Judeo-Christian in orientation) the same sort of evidence is seen in cultural roots such as ancient Arabic, Norwegian, Roman, Greek, and Britonic literature.

The Greeks and Romans also had a lot of nudity, and it really didn't distract them from sex. If anything, their societies display a lot more focus on the sexual nature of nudity, at least if their art and records can be trusted in anyway (Suetonius, a historian, talked about how sexual perversion was part of what made many Caesar's corrupt).

Fuzzy's right, to make the change, you DO have to change every man's perception. We're not talking about something forbidden for a couple decades, but mellenia old perceptions.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

First off dont yell, I never "Raised" my voice once. Im not portraying you as a monster and nothing in my post suggested that.

In fact I tried to be sensitive to how you might take what i've written when I asked you to take it in the nicest possible way. I realized that the internet is insufficient when it comes to communicating and I tried to add a caveat onto what I said to make you aware that I wasn't attacking you. I wasnt trying to be antagonistic, but I wanted clarification because I really dont get why you would be offended by a woman trying to feed her child. Or understand why you feel its immodest. Chalk it up to my ignorence but I don't see why a person should have to cover themselves with a blanket to feed their kid.  The person is obviously not showing their breast with the intention to titilate or arouse and the breast is also not displayed for your benefit, so I dont even know why paying more attention to it is even warrented.
If you think that means Im calling you a monster than Im sorry for not getting your point of view. But I dont, and I dont agree that someone should be chastised for that either. I guess we have to disagree about that but I feel pretty strongly about it and I see that you do too.
Im sorry but I still disagree with your points mankind has been able to overcome socially accepted cultural values before, (the biggest being slavery) and I dont see why it couldn't be done again.