Author Topic: Nudity on tv  (Read 6746 times)

stacer

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Re: Nudity on tv
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2004, 11:07:06 PM »
Aside: I think Spriggan typed in Mustard's current title.
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Nudity on tv
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2004, 12:08:49 AM »
My thesis is still that women should recive the same treatment under the law that men do when it comes to showing their chest. That they should have the right to do so without fear of prosecution or a fine and that they should have the choice to do so as they see fit. Just like a man can.

I dont know why thats so hard to get.

I dont see why because I came to that conclusion I am immediately required to think up a solution, especally in the rants section of a forum. I had thought by bringing up the topic people could actually discuss it which for the most part they are. Demanding that I have a solution just because I brought the topic up isnt fair and you know it. Recognizing that its a problem is at least a start for me. The next step is probably legislation locally and then regionally and so on.  

I get that you guys dont agree with me. Im not sure if this is because the repeat posters on the board are predominantly mormon, or because you guys are more conservative than the other people I have talked to about this off the board.

Lastly sorry I couldnt type this fast enough for some people, what with me having other things to do on my only day off for two more weeks. Im not up to my previous post volume.

Lastly I thought of a scenario to put forth as an example.
Your walking through the mall wearing an LDS T-shirt when a man comes up and gently chastises you for wearing something he doesnt agree with. In fact he argues the shirt offends him. Disreguarding the free speach issue how does this make you feel? Was it his buisness to say anything to you even if he was offended?
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fuzzyoctopus

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Re: Nudity on tv
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2004, 01:01:18 AM »
Oooook, let's assume for the sake of this argument that the t-shirt in question actually does say something offensive, (because people ARE offended by nudity) like, "I'm a better Christian than you are."  Or "I'm Mormon and you're going to hell."  Shirts that would never actually be worn.

Because wearing that, you're going to assume that some people will be offended, and unless you're from another planet, you're going to know that nudity offends some, if not many, people.

How does it make you feel? It makes you feel embarrassed.  No, you don't think that he had any right to say anything to you.  

As for your thesis: thank you.  
Quote
My thesis is still that women should recive the same treatment under the law that men do when it comes to showing their chest. That they should have the right to do so without fear of prosecution or a fine and that they should have the choice to do so as they see fit. Just like a man can.

But the reason we're all arguing with you is that it is impossible for us to do anything that will make your views a reality.  Since it cannot be done, and we disagree with you, I'm wondering why don't you just drop the whole issue, instead of trying to prove to a bunch of mormons that there's nothing wrong with nudity.


And I revert to my earlier stance of - this topic is POINTLESS.
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Re: Nudity on tv
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2004, 07:54:56 AM »
i don't think you can set free speech aside. That encompasses my entire reaction. Too bad it offends him, but he DOES have the right to tell me that. As long as he doesn't get violent.

Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Nudity on tv
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2004, 07:58:11 AM »
dge Titione of the State of New York apparently disagrees with you Fuzzy.

Doing a little resear I discovered that exposure laws in New York State were altered in 1992 thanks to a "topfree" protest by women who wanted equal treatment under the law.

Here is the ruling


It is clear from the statute's legislative history, as well as our own case law and common sense, that the governmental objective to be served by Penal Law § 245.01 is to protect the sensibilities of those who wish to use the public beaches and parks in this State (People v Hollman, supra, at 207; see, Bill Jacket, L 1983, ch 216, Governor's Approval Memorandum, supra; id., Sponsor's Memorandum, supra; id., Letter from Assembly Member G.E. Lipshutz to Governor Cuomo, supra). And, since the statute prohibits the public exposure of female -- but not male - - breasts, it betrays an underlying legislative assumption that the sight of a female's uncovered breast in a public place is offensive to the average person in a way that the sight of a male's uncovered breast is not. It is this assumption that lies at the root of the statute's constitutional problem.
 
Although protecting public sensibilities is a generally legitimate goal for legislation (see, e.g., People v Hollman, supra), it is a tenuous basis for justifying a legislative classification that is based on gender, race or any other grouping that is associated with a history of social prejudice (see, Mississippi Univ. for Women v Hogan, 458 US 718, 725 ["[c]are must be taken in ascertaining whether the statutory objective itself reflects archaic and stereotypic notions"]). Indeed, the concept of "public sensibility" itself, when used in these contexts, may be nothing more than a reflection of commonly-held preconceptions and biases. One of the most important purposes to be served by the equal protection clause is to ensure that "public sensibilities" grounded in prejudice and unexamined stereotypes do not become enshrined as part of the official policy of government. Thus, where "public sensibilities" constitute the justification for a gender-based classification, the fundamental question is whether the particular "sensibility" to be protected is, in fact, a reflection of archaic prejudice or a manifestation of a legitimate government objective (cf., People v Whidden, 51 NY2d 457, 461).
 
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Nudity on tv
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2004, 07:58:22 AM »
Viewed against these principles, the gender-based provisions of Penal Law § 245.01 cannot, on this record, withstand scrutiny. Defendants contend that apart from entrenched cultural expectations, there is really no objective reason why the exposure of female breasts should be considered any more offensive than the exposure of the male counterparts. They offered proof that, from an anatomical standpoint, the female breast is no more or less a sexual organ than is the male equivalent (see, e.g., J McCrary, Human Sexuality [1973] 141). They further contend that to the extent that many in our society may regard the uncovered female breast with a prurient interest that is not similarly aroused by the male equivalent (but see Kinsey, Sexual Behavior in the Human Female [1953] 586-587; Kinsey, Sexual Behavior in Human Male [1948] 575; Wildman, Note on Males' and Females' Preference for Opposite-Sex Body Parts, 38 Psychological Reports 485-486), that perception cannot serve as a justification for differential treatment because it is itself a suspect cultural artifact rooted in centuries of prejudice and bias toward women. Indeed, there are many societies in other parts of the world -- and even many locales within the United States -- where the exposure of female breasts on beaches and in other recreational area is commonplace and is generally regarded as unremarkable.[n 3] It is notable that, other jurisdictions have taken the position that breasts are not "private parts" and that breast exposure is not indecent behavior (State v Parenteau, Ohio Misc 2d 10, 11, citing State v Jones, 7 NC App 165; State v Moore, 241 P2d 455; State v Crenshaw, 61 Haw 68; see also Duvallon v State, 404 So 2d 196), and twenty-two states specifically confine their statutory public exposure prohibitions to uncovered genitalia.[n 4]
 
The People in this case have not refuted this evidence or attempted to show the existence of evidence of their own to indicate that the non-lewd exposure of the female breast is in any way harmful to the public's health or well being. Nor have they offered any explanation as to why, the fundamental goal that Penal Law § 245.01 was enacted to advance -- avoiding offense to citizens who use public beaches and parks -- cannot be equally well served by other alternatives (see, Wengler v Druggists Mut. Ins. Co., 446 US 142, 151-152; Orr v Orr, 440 US 268, 281-283).
 
In summary, the People have offered nothing to justify a law that discriminates against women by prohibiting them from removing their tops and exposing their bare chests in public as men are routinely permitted to do. The mere fact that the statute's aim is the protection of "public sensibilities" is not sufficient to satisfy the state's burden of showing an "exceedingly persuasive justification" for a classification that expressly discriminates on the basis of sex (see, Kirchberg v Feenstra, 450 US 455, 461). Accordingly, the gender-based classification established by Penal Law § 245.01 violates appellants' equal protection rights and, for that reason, I concur in the majority's result and vote to reverse the order below.
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fuzzyoctopus

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Re: Nudity on tv
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2004, 11:03:22 AM »
Ok, well New York was already on my list of "places I don't want to live."
« Last Edit: February 11, 2004, 11:04:20 AM by fuzzyoctopus »
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Re: Nudity on tv
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2004, 12:12:14 PM »
Frankly, Jeffe, so what?

The fact that it's in court indicates that people are still being offended by it.  Making something legal is not going to change publicly held beliefs, and until those beliefs are changed widespread toplessness is not going to be accepted.

Quote
I dont see why because I came to that conclusion I am immediately required to think up a solution, especally in the rants section of a forum. I had thought by bringing up the topic people could actually discuss it which for the most part they are. Demanding that I have a solution just because I brought the topic up isnt fair and you know it. Recognizing that its a problem is at least a start for me. The next step is probably legislation locally and then regionally and so on.


Obviously, legislation is not the next step.  Changing cultural attitudes is the next step.  None of the modesty issues you've cited in previous posts (ankles, etc...) were changed through legislation.

And what's wrong with asking you to present a solution.  You say that recognizing the problem is good enough for you: we have replied that we DON'T think it's a problem, although we're willing to discuss alternative solutions.  Apparently, you only want us to agree with you, not discuss the issue.
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Nudity on tv
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2004, 07:42:27 PM »
changing cultural attidtudes is the next step? Tell that to the kids in Little Rock who changed the world because it was made law that you cant segregate a school along color lines. People in the south didnt want their kids going to the same school as black kids, but when they were forced to the situation changed. And slowly but surely people in the south have been shedding their prejudices. Often Legislation opens the road to cultural acceptance. But see that where im not getting you guys... you say Im arguing just to have you agree with me... but Im not. At this point Im arguing because when I do bring up what I feel are valid points you guys dont discuss them, but throw a definate... that could never happen back in my face.
I've cited examples of cultural values changing with someones lifetime (From floor length dresses to pants for instance) but that doesn't seem good enough, I've given examples of where the law in some states says and gotten vague examples of "well its always been that way, which I feel is inadequate given that I have at least tried to do some research on the subject and tried (I've felt anyway) to present some of what I have found out to you. The only person who has even tried, and I thank him very much because he is a good debater is Saint although Im pretty miffed about his letter to me which I thought was over the top. So yeah I get the feeling you guys dont really want to discuss the topic or want me to discuss something that I feel is important. In fact Im kind of getting the impression that you all just wish I would go away.
If thats true I just wish you'd say it.
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fuzzyoctopus

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Re: Nudity on tv
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2004, 08:07:18 PM »
I thought that my saying that this was pointless three or four times did that.

I am INFURIATED that you compare these two unrelated things.  Where  do you think you get off comparing "equal nudity' to segregated schools?
Segregated schools impaired education, social and financial possibilities for black children.  Tell me that women not being able to be topless in public does all that and I've got a bridge to sell you.

If you really feel that strongly about this issue, the only thing you can do is change your own career track, get appointed a Supreme Court judge in 50 years and then MAYBE you can do something about it.

If not, fine.  I wish you'd just drop the whole issue because it's doing nothing causing a lot of bad blood, and making me want to curse my head off at you.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2004, 08:23:31 PM by fuzzyoctopus »
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Re: Nudity on tv
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2004, 08:08:58 PM »
a) let's not discuss that letter here. there's a reason why I sent it privately. If you have feelings about it, send them to me.

b) other people have. Your examples have been addressed by counter-examples and examples why they might not be valid, which you have also ignored.

This subject is starting to annoy me, as there are strong feelings on both sides and I don't think anyone is completely addressing anyone else's position.

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Re: Nudity on tv
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2004, 01:59:37 PM »
The entire Rants section of the forum is one that I have come to avoid on general principle, and since we're pretty much all adults I assumed that my absence as a moderator would not be a problem. Then I hear that there's this enormous argument and people threatening to leave the forum and I just hang my head and sigh.

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3) Don't have arguments in general.

We don't want anyone to leave the forum, because we love you all. But please don't troll, don't yell, don't accuse, and don't hammer touchy topics ad nauseum. Agree to disagree, and then talk about something else.
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fuzzyoctopus

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Re: Nudity on tv
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2004, 04:56:28 PM »
I apologise for getting out of control.
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Re: Nudity on tv
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2004, 10:11:43 PM »
Dead topic yes, needs a bit of revitalization, no. I know I do, and I say this sincerly, miss the Mad Dr. I know I've said some stupid things to him before, and I've just only noticed the ending of this thread. I generally avoid these arguementative threads for that purpose, I'm not one for arguing unless I can act totally bigotted and assinine about it. Which isn't to say I am a bigot.

But yes, I do miss Jeffe. And I for one, apologize for anyones conduct that might have upset anyone.
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Nudity on tv
« Reply #44 on: February 29, 2004, 05:35:13 PM »
I appreciate that Gemm, and Im sorry if starting this topic caused issues. But the topic has been less a factor in my non-participation than the Email Saint sent me, im still really upset about it and untill I get over it Im staying away from open forums.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2004, 05:35:39 PM by ElJeffe »
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