I think I might have confused myself and Reaves by extension by failing to realize that his concept of saving vs full salvation would be different than my own (duh ).
Lol wow, of course now I realize your definition of salvation would be incredibly different from mine considering you don't believe in a hell, but I didn't even think about it then
That explains a lot.
Yeah, I think Ookla probably stated that better than me too. I guess I just don't see the 'chicken and egg' theories of when Heavenly Father and the Universe first existed as important to our current salvation as knowing his current state and our relationship with him. I'll be sure to ask him about it someday though.
Okay, that's one way to look at it. However, throwing into doubt God's creation of the universe is throwing into doubt a much more important and immediate claim: the veracity of the Bible. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." If you don't believe that, how can you believe anything else the Bible tells us?
If Adam and Eve had not sinned, we would be sinless beings, with the same moral capacity to make choices. However, I see this as being a moot point; if Adam and Eve had not sinned, someone else would have I'd like to think if I had been in Adam's place I would have made the right choice, but who knows.
So (just for clarification) you believe that Adam and Eve were fully mortal and able to bear children in the Garden? If taking the apple was the wrong choice, what would be the right one?
That depends on what you mean by fully mortal. I believe that without any sin committed, there would be no death for humans. And I see no reason to doubt that Adam and Eve could bear children. Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them."
And also: Genesis 2:24 "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." Both of these verses definitely seem to more than suggest that Adam and Eve were not neuter but fully formed as man and woman even before they sinned.
As for what Adam and Eve should have done concerning the forbidden fruit...well, they should have trusted God's promises. God said that if they disobeyed his commands regarding the tree, they would die. When the serpent spoke to Eve, it immediately struck at the truth of God's word; whether eating of the fruit of the tree would actually cause them to die, and it made a counter-promise: that eating of the fruit of the tree would cause them to be like God.
I do not believe that God the Father and Jesus are the same person. I believe they are different persons, yet are both codeity together with the Holy Spirit. All have existed eternally, yet differ in roles and authority.
Yeah, I always thought the Nicene Creed with the trinity and their concept of God was a bit confusing and contradictory, but that makes more sense.
Yeah, there is a point where everyone just has to realize that they are finite creatures and can never fully understand the nature of an infinite being.
So is baptism, for you, more of a formality or a requirement?
We all are expected to be baptized at eight or the time of our conversation after a bishop's interview where they see that we understand it's significant. We see it a chance to cleanse the slate and make our first commitment to God. We renew the commitment by repentance and the weekly sacrament. Along with it's connection to repentance, baptism by the proper authority is seen as a vital step for salvation as Jesus was baptized himself.
Alright, that is a little different from our view. We believe that while baptism is not necessary for salvation, it was commanded by Jesus and there is really almost no good reason to avoid it. If I really thought it was necessary, trust me I would have been baptized long ago
Oh yeah, and that is another difference: we only take the Lord's Supper once every month. We just don't want it to become "old hat" something that becomes just another part of Sunday morning. I personally believe that when Jesus said: "In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me," he wanted it to be something done at every meal, analogous to prayer before eating, but that is just my personal beliefs and not representative of my church.
I'm glad we're able to have this kind of discussion. Its really helped me understand a lot more about the LDS faith, thank you for being so honest and open with me.
Its possible you'll see my next questions as loaded or confrontational, but I really want to hear what you have to say. First of all, where in the Bible do Mormons find support for the doctrine of deification, namely that we can become like God? And also, how do Mormons explain biblical references to hell?
Like I said I'm not trying to place your faith "on trial" as Jade put it. I just want to understand what it is you believe about things that seem so foreign to me. Thanks again!