Author Topic: General Religious discussion  (Read 67304 times)

Reaves

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #165 on: June 04, 2009, 12:13:29 AM »
Sorry I haven't added anything to this thread today, but tomorrow is the last day of finals and I need to study!! Hopefully I can get back to it tomorrow. I'm glad to see more people joining in!
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origamikaren

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #166 on: June 04, 2009, 05:29:03 AM »
Ookla says that if I want to respond to this thread, I should do it myself rather than making him type it like I did last night. 

Writerainge: I pretty much agree with what Frog said about revelation. 

We have a prophet who receives revelation for and speaks to the whole church for a couple of reasons, none of which is to have somebody who we believe is infallible and who we should follow blindly.  Reason 1: God's house is a house of order, and if there wasn't somebody in charge, and an established chain of command, there would be chaos.  Reason 2: We believe most revelation comes from when a person has a question, and asks God for an answer.  Each member in the church is entitled to receive revelation for him/herself and for their area of responsibility.  If it's my calling to teach a class of 7 year olds, I'm mostly going to be thinking and praying about how to get that group of seven year olds ready to be baptized at age 8 (by making sure they know how to tell right from wrong, and understand repentance, and Christ's role in the atonement) rather than thinking about the growing problems of internet pornography, and how to make sure Church programs work for people all over the world (and not just in Utah).

When the Prophet says something new, each member is encouraged to think about it, study the issue, and ask God for a confirmation that it's true.  Sometimes, we have to trust that the Prophet knows what he's talking about, and give it a try for a while to see if it makes our lives better (If you want a great scripture reference for this, read Alma chapter 32 in the Book of Mormon, where he encourages the people to "experiment on the word")http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/32

A recent time when I did this was when our church leaders asked us to be active in the campaign for Prop 8 in California (and if you need to debate the issues in that campaign again, please start a new thread rather than discussing it in this one).  It was a very difficult thing to ask, because many of us have a live and let live attitude (see the 11th Article of Faith http://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1) and didn't want to hurt the people who felt strongly in the other direction.  Once I started working on the campaign, it was VERY difficult to continue because of the really horrible things people were saying to me.  Yet, because I had prayed about the matter, I knew in my heart that I was doing what God wanted me to do, and I know that I have been blessed with stronger faith because of the experience.  I came to see that we were asked to participate in the campaign not because it would likely keep any current Homosexual couple from doing whatever they wanted, but because we needed to assert our right to have an opinion on moral issues and vote our conscience, and that those rights were under VERY HEAVY attack.

So the Prophet receives revelation about what the general membership of the Church ought to be thinking about, focusing their energy on, and asking for revelation about in their lives.  This doesn't stop anyone from asking for revelation about their specific issues. The doctrines of the gospel give wide latitude (within some strict parameters) for each person to decide between himself and the Lord what is the right thing for him to do in any situation.  I believe this is referred to in the New Testament as "Christian Liberty" (OK, in looking for a citation, I see that Paul never used that term, but the topic I'm thinking about is in 1 Cor chapter 8) http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_cor/8/9#9

As the Church has matured, there have been many times when the programs have changed to better meet the needs of the people.  There have also been a few times when the Lord, through revelation to His Prophet, has released the Church from the responsibility of obeying certain commandments because it wasn't really possible to do so (for example, we're not expected to live the United Order/Law of Consecration/Having All Things in Common like the New Testament saints or the early Mormon saints tried to, because it doesn't work within the larger economy unless everyone is equally committed, and that's impossible.) The underlying doctrines of the church have NOT changed, however, and we are still asked to commit everything we have and all our time and talents to the building up of the kingdom of God on Earth.

So no, our logic does not require anyone to take our word for anything.  Each person who is truly humble and asks God to help him know the truth, intending to act on the truth once he knows it, WILL receive an answer, a revelation, a witness for himself.  This revelation will probably not be an angelic visitation, but it will be clear enough confirmation, that the person receiving it won't doubt what he's experienced. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/10/4#4
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #167 on: June 04, 2009, 04:52:42 PM »
How did you think i was insulted? I didn't mean to sound as if i was... well my understanding of life after death is that of ignorance... i was raised as a Southern Baptist and became a christian with out a denomination (non-denominational is a denomination) and eventually lost all faith i had... i believe we are all ignorant of the after life and i dislike the very concept of faith because it is the choice to believe regardless of ignorance i don't know for certain if re-incarnation exist though i find that more appealing than an after-life which to me sounds like stagnation... but the fact remains we are all of us uncertain
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Frog

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #168 on: June 04, 2009, 05:49:25 PM »
How did you think i was insulted? I didn't mean to sound as if i was...
That was mostly just me trying to soften the fact that I was about to disagree with you. I'm rarely one for controversy, especially when it's so easy to take written comments out of context when you don't know the tone or person behind it. But now I am mostly going to agree with you.

I personally would see being an 'asexual servant of God' forever as stagnate, boring and almost as depressing as believing that death is the end of existence.  That is not what LDS people believe. If you are a position where you dislike the concept of faith, explaining this probably wouldn't mean much to you, but faith isn't just an arbitrary belief or hope either. There are ways to test it. Most commandments come with promised blessings. You keep the commandments in the proper spirit, and then you receive the blessings. By this I can say that I gained trust in God and faith by experience along with my hope for a positive outcome.

It's sort of like a weight loss program. If you want to know if it works, you sign up, follow all the instructions and then see if you manage to drop 50 lbs. ::)

Are you happy with your current beliefs (or lack thereof ;) )? To me, that is always the most important thing: Finding ways to have real happiness or joy in this life that goes beyond a few cheep thrills.
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #169 on: June 04, 2009, 06:57:16 PM »
The funny thing is i have found peace in admitting my ignorance and am much happier than i was as a professed christian
"Words are double edged blades. Only the great and the foolish play with knives." - Kaz the Buddah

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Writerainge

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #170 on: June 04, 2009, 09:57:27 PM »
well my understanding of life after death is that of ignorance... i was raised as a Southern Baptist and became a christian with out a denomination (non-denominational is a denomination) and eventually lost all faith i had... i believe we are all ignorant of the after life and i dislike the very concept of faith because it is the choice to believe regardless of ignorance i don't know for certain if re-incarnation exist though i find that more appealing than an after-life which to me sounds like stagnation... but the fact remains we are all of us uncertain

I have to agree with Kaz here... Faith, by definition is belief or hope without knowledge... I think certain people with faith need it to give their lives meaning and purpose.  It's a scary thing to wonder, "Who am I?  What is my purpose?  Do I matter in this universe?" etc.  Religion and faith gives  specific answers to said questions and that promotes a feeling of being loved, forgiven, and sense of purpose.   

I have read the book of Mormon, living in Utah, you can't really escape it.  As a history major, I immediately had chronological and logistical issues with the book.  Regardless, I glazed such issues over with the idea that perhaps science, history, and such things were mistaken and I needed to pray with sincere intent and see if I could communicate with the divine.  After receiving no such communication or "confirmation" (I am aware of what they are supposed to be because of the missionaries)  I was informed that I must have "done it wrong" or "not been open" to said communication.  I am to take it that if I didn't get the answer that they told me to get, or it wasn't revelated to me that what I read was truth, then I wasn't asking in the correct manner and/or open to the correct answer which is the answer they gave me that I'm supposed to have. 

Honestly, placing aside the issues I have with the entire Joseph Smith deal, Brigham Young, Church doctrine regarding women (which isn't LDS specific), "priesthood", Word of Wisdom, worthiness, temple ceremony, bishop confessionals/interviews, tithing practice, political maneuverings i.e. paid lobbyists and special interest groups, historical inconsistencies, etc...  I have a fundamental problem with the idea that a loving God would create sinners and then punish them.  It makes no sense to me.  The entire idea of Jesus Christ, one person atoning for our sins, also has no basis in rationality for me.  Thus, that is where faith takes part in your lives.  In order to wrap yourselves in this religion so completely and utterly that every decision you make; from the people you chose to love and partner with, to the food and beverages you consume, to the clothing you wear, to when you shop, to how you spend your money, is based around the commandments and "revelations" of a prophet that tells you that he speaks to God for you. You HAVE to receive some kind of "revelation" i.e. a good, peaceful feeling, a small voice in your consiousness, or a confident burning in your heart that everything that comes out of his mouth is true... otherwise, the entire basis for your ethics and value system would break down and it would be a colossal waste of time and huge pain in the ass. But, since you're willing to bet that you're building your mansions in the highest realm of heaven... it is worth the effort to you. 

I am not in any way saying that you are WRONG in doing so... don't missunderstand me.   
I'm just saying that I don't KNOW... therefore, I can't reconcile in my mind living my life in such a way.  Instead, I search for universal truths and follow those truths to the best of my ability always striving to better myself and the lives of the people I come into contact with.  I, essentially, live a faithless life.  I don't portend to have revelation for anyone and I do my best to build a relationship with the divine without presuming that it is a glorified version of myself.  I believe in doing good for the sake of doing good, not to receive blessings or to please a higher power.  I believe that love is the highest and truest law and is taught in nearly every religion throughout the world because inside we have a connection to each other that tells us that this is so.  I am a creationist because it doesn't make sense to me that matter is formed from nothing.  I believe there is a loving, caring creator/father/mother of our souls/spirit/energy/essence and that we will most likely have to answer for our actions here.  My belief, however is not faith, it is not knowledge, it is a most powerful HOPE.  And coming to have that hope has made me the happiest person I can possibly be.  I have had tragedy and trial to maintain balance and nurture growth and compassion,   but most of my days are filled with unadulterated bliss.  None of my pleasures are fleeting, none of my gratification is instant and/or short lived, instead, I live with a constant feeling of well being and wholeness nurtured by my loved ones.   
So, in essence that is my religion.  It's kinda hard to give it a name... lol.





« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 11:48:21 PM by Writerainge »
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Writerainge

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #171 on: June 05, 2009, 12:00:58 AM »

 Also, I am confused by the idea that religion has anything to do with finding real happiness as opposed to cheap thrills.  How would one's belief in which ever god and gospel help you to ascertain the difference?
There is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophies. My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness. ~Dali Lama

origamikaren

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #172 on: June 05, 2009, 04:40:16 AM »
I think we have very little disagreement about the fundamentals here.  It sounds to me like you have done some "experimenting on the word" in your search for fundamental truths that lead to happiness, and you have found some that have borne good fruit. I think that if you continue to honestly search for truth, and doing good for the sake of doing good, then you will be just fine in the afterlife.

I've gone through quite a few periods in my life when I've honestly wondered, "What if it's all a lie?  What if there is no afterlife, or my church has it all wrong?" Being of a logical and scientific turn of mind, I then said, "OK, take the hypothesis that there is no afterlife, what would you do differently her and now?"  I asked myself if I'd wear different clothes, date different people. Would I eat differently? Smoke cigarettes? Get drunk every evening like my next door neighbors do? Steal? Have sex outside of marriage?

I looked at even the most glamorous representations of many of these behaviors, and found that they didn't look like they led to happiness. The drunken parties my neighbors throw every night don't even look like they're fun before they often turn into screaming matches, and most of the people who hang out there don't seem to have stable jobs, homes, families, or even relationships.

I also saw that being a member of the Church gave me a safety net for many of the areas that I'd fall down in my life alone.  I know that I'll have a whole crowd of people happy to meet me and be my new friends when I move someplace new (it's still hard for me to socialize, but at least I have a starting place). There are opportunities to serve others, learn from people who've been through my stage of life and beyond, and share my own talents.  I don't have to worry that my donations to humanitarian causes are being spent on executives with huge salaries and expensive infomercials.  The list goes on and on.

Then I considered that if in every area I could reasonably test in this life, living the gospel made me happier than not, then there might also be truth in the places I couldn't test -- and even if there's not, it really isn't that hard for me to do the little extras. That's what makes it worth it for me.  I have had spiritual experiences, but they are somehow easy to dismiss or forget in the tough times.  during those times, my logic keeps me on the straight and narrow until I can feel His hand in my life again (and I always have felt Him again).

As for a loving God creating us then waiting to punish us, I don't think that's how it works at all.  I have an 18 month old daughter, and I love her and want the best for her.  I make rules about what she can eat (not too many sweets), and when she has to sleep, and what she can play with (she's not allowed to dance with my sharp scissors).  There are times when she gets into something I don't want her to, and she gets upset when I take it away.  When she gets older, I'll make rules based on my greater experience, and if she deliberately breaks them, there will be consequences for her actions.  I may have to punish her for small (in the grand scheme of things) disobediences in order to keep her from heading down a path that I know will lead to unhappiness (for instance, I don't think that drug use or teen sex can ever be a recipe for happiness, so I'll do my best to make sure she has good friends and stays out of dangerous situations).  I will never be so angry at her that I'll stop loving her, even if she makes some decisions that disappoint me or make me sad.  I know that school and college will be difficult at times, but I'll send her anyway, because I know that she can't grow up to be a competent adult if I lock her in the house all the time.  I could be said to be her creator -- almost every bit of her physical body was once a part of me, but there was something eternal -- some personality -- that I just made a home for.

I think that this is exactly the way God feels about us, only his love and experience are infinitely greater than ours.  I believe that he created our spirits (and also the world we live on and therefore our bodies), but that He had some kind of material to start from -- some part of our personality that is eternal even beyond God.  He sent us to earth to gain the experience we'd need to become all that we can be in the eternities -- and I believe that we will be working, progressing, and creating in the afterlife.  He knew that it would be hard, and that not all of us would live up to our full potential, but He also knew that if we didn't experience mortality, none of us could progress much further than we had already.  I believe that He wants to do everything in His power to help us succeed.  I believe the only real "punishment" in store is having to look in His loving face and see the sad look of disappointment there.  I believe that it will be so painful to those who willfully rebelled that they won't want to be near Him, and so will not be able to dwell in His presence, and the eternal soul wrenching guilt of knowing what you could have been if you'd only done as He asked.  I believe that anyone who sincerely wants to do good and be the best they can be, will have an opportunity to do so either in this life or the next.  I believe that the better we can become in this life, the easier it will be to keep moving forward in the next, but that He'll give us all the chances we need as long as we're sincerely doing the best with what we have (As for what "Sincerely doing you best" entails -- only God can judge that).

As for happiness versus cheap thrills, think of a drug addict.  He gets cheap thrills, but very little real happiness as he destroys his relationships, his health, his career, and ultimately his whole life in search of more drugs.  If your faith in God leads you to a religion that teaches you not to waste your time, money, etc on addictive substances, then following that religion will keep you from doing things that will certainly make you unhappy, and encourage you to do things that will make you happy, even if they're not all as obvious as not doing drugs.
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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #173 on: June 05, 2009, 05:19:48 AM »
Just one more note -- I don't know why you didn't receive a confirmation of the Book of Mormon.  It is, of course, possible that you "did it wrong" as somebody implied to you at the time.  It's also possile that other things going on in your life made it difficult for you to recognize or accept those feelings.  It's also possible that God expected you to think about it a little more deeply.  It's also possible that it wasn't the right time.  There are lots of possibilities. I certainly don't know -- I wasn't there and don't have enough information to judge you, your efforts, or your intentions.  Nobody but God can judge that sort of thing, and those who made a judgement about you were wrong to do so.

I don't know you or your situation well enough to tell you how to get the conditions right to feel the spirit, but I will say once again, that you should continue doing things that you have found bring you true happiness, and be open to the idea that there may be things in your life that you can change to become a better person (as there are for all of us, including me).  If you keep striving to have a relationship with God, and become a better person all the time, I believe He will direct you to the places where you can find the understanding you (like most people, including me) are looking for.
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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #174 on: June 05, 2009, 10:16:13 AM »
I have to agree with Kaz here... Faith, by definition is belief or hope without knowledge... I think certain people with faith need it to give their lives meaning and purpose. 

I would argue that you've entirely misunderstood what faith means in the context of Christianity.  "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen." (Hebrews 11:1)  Faith is paying your tuition with the hope (after apprehending the evidence) that you will receive a proper education in exchange.  Faith is placing a pan of dough in the oven with the hope (and expectation) that it will come out as bread.  Total ignorance is completely incompatable with faith.

And while your own personal approach to LDS theology is ultimately between you and God, your lack of inspiration after reading the Book of Mormon might possibly have come from your misunderstanding of faith—I suggest this merely as one possibility; it is, of course, impossible for me to know the reasons for your own particular experience, short of specific divine intervention.

To give you some personal context:  I used to be a Strong Agnostic (I believed that anyone who said they "knew" was either deluded or lying).  I didn't originally understand what faith was.  At one point in my life, due to entirely sociological reasons (which Karen has hinted at), I "accidentally" exercised an intense amount of faith, and learned thereby both what faith was and the Truth.  And, in case it is of interest to you, I have a history degree.

Overall, I'd like to support what Karen has said.  Her response is well thought-out and explains many of my own thoughts and feelings.  Thank you for that, Karen.

You may also be interested to note (if you have not before) that one LDS scripture states that "It is impossible for a man to be saved in ingorance." (D&C 131:6)  We, as saints, are not in the business of ignorantly accepting anything; not if we are true to our religion.  Interestingly enough, there is demographic evidence which seems to support this on a wider scale.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 10:31:17 AM by The Jade Knight »
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #175 on: June 05, 2009, 03:11:31 PM »
Why do the LDS want to be known as Christians? The biggest differences between the other denominations happen to be Saints (and their power is severely limited primarily to fight the seven deadly sins) and whether or not you can lose salvation. The differences are so drastically different such as the very fundamental concept of Jesus being the son of a deity or of Joesph also the concept of achieving god-hood and even the after-life why would you want to be considered something you are so different from in core beliefs
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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #176 on: June 05, 2009, 04:57:41 PM »
I had a post written up last night after Writerainge. It was awesome and it was long. I even stopped to put in a few references and things. But than an epically cool storm came in and I lost connection. Now Karen and Jade have beaten me to the punch (great job guys!) so you have been spared my ramblings. Here is the highlighted version anyway to show my support and that I am still involved with the conversation:

I can’t invalidate your personal experience. I don’t know you, your current circumstances, mind set or the missionaries involved. But this puts up a warning flag to me:
Quote
I have a fundamental problem with the idea that a loving God would create sinners and then punish them.

I would have a problem with that too. I wouldn’t join a church that believed that, because honestly that just seems silly. God didn’t create ‘sinners,’ he created human beings with freewill. We believe that each child is born innocent, but he gave us our agency and expected us to use it. If we weren’t given the opportunity or enticed to sin by the adversary (Satan), life would be meaningless. There is no victory without the possibility of failure. We are all just learning here, so of course, as a loving Heavenly Father, he provided a way for us to make up for our shortcomings if we choose to use it. He won’t force anyone into heaven and he certainly hasn’t forced anyone into hell or punishment. (2 Nephi 2)   

And I would also like to add that while I haven't lived in Utah myself, I have lived in other high LDS populations and one thing to remember is that while we believe our church to have the complete doctrine needed for salvation, we have never professed to having multitudes of perfect members. Individuals will make mistakes. I make them all the time. In fact, one of my favorite quotes is this: “That the church isn’t meant to be a museum of perfect people, but a hospital for those that are sick.” (I wish, I could find his name, but I can't. I know it was spoken in conference)

Oh, and to clarify, the question I asked Kaz was merely a question as to get to know him and his situation better. I wasn't trying to imply that the only happiness he could have found was in cheap thrills. I just know that my greatest happiness comes from following the principles of the Gospel. It is the whole point. The Plan of Salvation that we use to describe the purpose of life is also called the Plan of Happiness and "Men are that they might have joy." ( 2 Nephi 2). So if Kaz says that he is happy, my honest response would be that I am happy for him. Obviously getting away from the constant battle of various religions to find a few of his own core beliefs is beneficial to him right now, and I wouldn't do anything but support him.

After all, if someone isn't interested in the product of the gospel (happiness) why would he be interested in the process?

Yeah, so now that I have that out of my system I can sincerely thank you for taking the time to give the church a fair shot. That's really all we are asking. :D

Oh and Kaz, I think one of the main reasons we would like to be know as Christians is because we worship Christ and believe in his core doctrine as laid out in the Bible. One of the most common complaints I hear about the Church is that "we worship Joseph Smith" and "completely discredit the Bible"  and that simply is not the case.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 05:01:12 PM by Frog »
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #177 on: June 05, 2009, 05:53:44 PM »
yeah but the fundamental principles are drastically different... sure you worship christ but all other denominations believe him to be part of the trinity the only god for eternity and the blood descendant of the father not of Joseph... mary's virginity is extremely important to them. Not to mention they believe all people who do not accept christ as the only means to the father go to hell after death and those who do accept this "truth" go to heaven there is no second chance there is no reincarnation i simply have a hard time seeing how you can consider the LDS a christian denomination... though my opinion matters little since i believe Jesus Christ to have been a man and very similar to Ghandi trying to pave a road of acceptance and over all peace for mankind
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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #178 on: June 05, 2009, 07:09:37 PM »
Oh, I'm sorry. I guess I didn't make it clear in my previous posts. We do believe that Jesus was the son of Heavenly Father both physically and spiritually. Joseph (of the Joseph and Mary variety) was a good man but he was not Jesus' father. Jesus needed to be immortal to complete the atonement and be a pure and holy sacrifice for sin (as the physical son of God, no one could take his life except that he gave it to them and had the power to break the bonds of death) he needed to be human so he could better relate to our sorrows and our experiences here. That is what makes him the perfect mediator between us and the Father.

Neither do we believe in reincarnation. Just eternal progression and resurrection at the time of the second coming. Heaven is a very broad term for many different degrees of glory which is worked out individually. Resurrection and eternal life is a free gift; progression and "gaining all the father has" is not.

There are many denominations that are Christan and it is a very broad term, but we believe that we practice Christianity as it was when it was first established by Christ himself. Of course we wouldn't want to take on the name of another Christian denomination that didn't share all our beliefs (like the Baptists or so forth) but it is very important to us that we take on the name of Christ as it is his church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) and it is by him that we achieve our greatest potential.

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Writerainge

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Re: General Religious discussion
« Reply #179 on: June 05, 2009, 08:08:08 PM »

I've gone through quite a few periods in my life when I've honestly wondered, "What if it's all a lie?  What if there is no afterlife, or my church has it all wrong?" Being of a logical and scientific turn of mind, I then said, "OK, take the hypothesis that there is no afterlife, what would you do differently her and now?"  I asked myself if I'd wear different clothes, date different people. Would I eat differently? Smoke cigarettes? Get drunk every evening like my next door neighbors do? Steal? Have sex outside of marriage?

I looked at even the most glamorous representations of many of these behaviors, and found that they didn't look like they led to happiness. The drunken parties my neighbors throw every night don't even look like they're fun before they often turn into screaming matches, and most of the people who hang out there don't seem to have stable jobs, homes, families, or even relationships.

As for happiness versus cheap thrills, think of a drug addict.  He gets cheap thrills, but very little real happiness as he destroys his relationships, his health, his career, and ultimately his whole life in search of more drugs.  If your faith in God leads you to a religion that teaches you not to waste your time, money, etc on addictive substances, then following that religion will keep you from doing things that will certainly make you unhappy, and encourage you to do things that will make you happy, even if they're not all as obvious as not doing drugs.

I find these misconceptions common among Mormons...  There are people in my neighborhood who will not let their children into my home because I have alcohol and coffee there.  Mormons tend to think that if you drink at all, you are a party animal.  What they don't realize (especially if they've never lived out of Utah) is that MOST people in this world drink a glass or two of wine/ale/microbrew/or other alcohol with their evening meal and/or relaxing after work or before bed on occasion.  Your view of drinkers is the "girls gone wild" type, and in this sociological climate, you sort of do get one or the other in Happy Valley.  But if you stepped into the real world for a moment you would see that moderation reigns.   It has been proven a glass of wine  a day will help you to fight off obesity, live longer, and promotes overall well being.  (Read; "Why French Women Don't Get Fat." By Mireille Guiliano)  This is the type of drinker that I am and my family is.  We are amateur Somolier's and study the science behind wine and the pairings with food and they way that a fine wine will enhance the flavors of your meal.  This is a growing trend in the US and has been long standing tradition in Europe.
Also, Since beginning a regimen of regular morning coffee along with green tea and other herbs and a healthy diet.  I have cured the ulcers that I have been plagued with since childhood and dropped 60 pounds and maintained that healthy weight for 2 years.   The roasted coffee bean is quite medicinal and will help you to stave off diabetes, stroke, kidney/liver damage, and recently found to help Parkinson's disease.  (plus it tastes like heaven in a CUP!)   I understand how Alcohol can be destructive force in many people's lives, but I find that anything in excess (including food as I watch my corpulent Mormon neighbors trundle to work) can be destructive. 

My husband and I have very stable jobs where we thrive, (as do most people who moderately drink in the world) and the best marriage.  We are soul mates and not once in our 7 year relationship we have never screamed, name called, an rarely even fought.  We do everything together and even our Mormon friends can attest to the fact that we are some of the happiest people they know.  (Ask Erik Holmes)  Our three children are straight A students and are growing up with an understanding of safe sex, moderation in all things, and a realistic education about the world around us.  We are the rule, not the exception.  People who have drunken parties every night are usually the lowest common denominator and are not a realistic way to gauge how the rest of us live.  Being compared to a drug addict or compulsive partier is somewhat offensive, but something that I run into a lot because of people's ignorance.

I'm glad that the church has been a safety net for you when you would have otherwise been alone.  That is wonderful.  I find that many many people are religious for the social aspect.  That is a valid reason for needing such.  Your thoughts on a loving God who doesn't not create sinners and then punish them are beautiful... but your lovely personal sentiment is not backed up by christian doctrine, the bible, or even the book of Mormon.  According to doctrine you are sent here to sin and be forgiven of your sins and the only way to do that is to follow specific commandments, many of which make NO sense. 
i.e. We are born with sexual orientations and if they don't fall into the mainstream then they are "evil" and must be "cured".  We are born with healthy sex drives that can only be explored within the bonds of marriage and as a result much sexual dysfunction is created and nurtured.  Some religions hang your salvation and worthiness to receive certain blessings on how much money you give them  (this is not exclusive of the LDS church).  Most churches do not allow women to have any "Priesthood" powers and seek to take away the rights of women over their own bodies and choices.   And SOME even pacify the women by telling her the fact that she can bear children and nurture a home make her holier and more spiritual then men so she doesn't need any of that "troublesome responsibility"... and the women just accept that. 
Lists and lists and lists of things that make no sense but cannot be argued in a religion forum because reason and logic are not used as an argument but "revelations", "feelings", and biased sentiment born of the traditions and Dogma of the last 2000 years.  You could pick any one of these and a myriad of other issues and we could debate them all for hours and hours both sides finding studdies and instances to back up our claims.  I think that since most of us are steadfast in our convictions at this point, our opinions would not be changed.  I respect that, absolutely, and as fun as I find lively religious debates, I'm starting to think that this one might prove futile because of the dominance of a specific ideal.

Much love, though. 
There is no need for temples, no need for complicated philosophies. My brain and my heart are my temples; my philosophy is kindness. ~Dali Lama