Star Wars musings

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

This is more of a rant than a movie discussion, so I thought it'd be better to discuss it here...

So Eric and I were having this talk a couple of weeks ago about Star Wars. The basic conclusion he and I had was that the Jedi were the unbalancing factor with the force and that Qui-Gon Jin is directly responsible for the creation of Darth Vader. Basically its all the Jedi's fault.

(Qui-Gon is responsible because he is abusive to Obi-Wan, his relationship with him and Anakins relationship to Obi-Wan are directly related. Qui-Gon is a Jedi loose cannon, ignoring laws and doing as he pleases.)

Carrying that just a little further and ignoring all the semi offical crud that fanboy writers (however offical Lucas has made them) have written , Luke balences the force, because he is a Jedi who knows both sides of the force. He hates, he angers he knows pain and suffering, he even fails the test of the cave. He is a dissapointment to Yoda, who for all his wisdom cant see that he and his generation were the problem in the first place. Oddly I think Obi-wan figured it out, which is why he taught Luke with greater compassion and patience than he taught Anakin. He deliberately held important parts of Jedi training back, teaching luke the techniques, but allowing him to feel the balance of the force on his own. He knew that Yoda would have to skip out on a lot of training too, because on neccessity.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

actually, I think Anakin brought balance to the force by re-introducing familial love into the equation. The Jedi's biggest sin was forbidding love other than on a compassionate service level, but that isn't a good thing. Anakin takes it too far at first, but it is his love for his son that causes him to repent, not a reminder of the important commitments he had made as a Jedi.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

I guess that also describes the Obi-Wan/ Qui-Gon relationship, a relationship where affection was almost nonexistent.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

all of which makes one wonder. if it's obi-wan and qui-gon, why isn't it ana-kin?

stupidity aside, i'm really eager to know how Anakin never checked on his HOME PLANET for someone with the SAME LAST NAME as him to find his son.

Perhaps he just didn't care. and he wasn't going to look until he thought the kid had potential. Or perhaps he didn't want the emperor to know and so refrained from finding his son.

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

Actually, Qui-Gon was right in saying Anakin was the chosen one because it was Anakin that destroyed the dark side of the force by killing the Sith lord Palpatine and thus ending the long line of master/apprentice sith survival.  

It was the Sith's way to have only one master and one apprentice since The Battle of Ruunsan, somewhere between 950 and 1950 years before the creation of the empire.  Since there was only one master, *Palpatine at the time, and one apprentice, Vader, whenvader gave up the dark side and simultaneously destroyed the master he "permanently" destroyed all people who knew how to use the dark side of the force, fulfilling the proficies and making Qui-Gon correct in his assumption.

MOD: *At the time when the sith were destroyed, about 54 years after the empire was created

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

1) that's not really "balance" y'know?

2) if you're going to use all that book stuff you're going to have to recognize all the other dark jedi and force users that show up, including a number of people not affiliated with the Sith or the Jedi.

so while I agree that Anakin is the one who brought balance, the way you got there seems incorrect.

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

I'm not using book stuff, well, kinda.  I once read a book and am making these figures from memory, so if some of them are of you'll have to excuse me.  The jedi prophesies proclaimed that there would be a powerful jedi who would destroy the dark side of the force, and of the likes.  That's precisely what Anakin did.

And the sith were reborn through the use of artifacts, ect., but they never gain much power because they aren't learning anything from a master, they are getting it all from artifacts and memory disks, ect.  And since the sith didn't keep very many records, the sith never really return to a powerful state, to my knowledge.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

The Sith happened because the Jedi had no outlet for emotion...
they were human or humanoid though and felt feelings something that surely put them on the course for being part of the Darkside. Fear, anger, love, lust these are all aspects of the human experience that the Jedi denied. There is a difference between mastering something and denying something and I think they let their religion get in the way of their contact with the force.

And as far as there can only be two, a master and an apprentice,... well thats how the Jedi saw it, it doesnt mean that its true... after all Palpetine did lots of things that they didnt expect and was even able to hide himself from the Jedi in plain site. In effect the Jedi are blindsided because everything they know about the Sith is wrong.

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

Well, first of all, the sith were origionally a species of organism that had a religion that was based around tangible evil.  Over time this religion was adopted as "The Dark Side" of the force and the actual species of the sith faded away, leaving what we know as the sith in the First Republic/Empire Era.

Sith DIDN'T happen because of the jedi, because a jedi could be corrupted into evil through greed or lust or some other forbidden emotion and not be concidered a sith.  Sith are not just users of a dark side, they are an order like the Jedi.  Just like if you were to learn how to use the force it didn't make you a jedi automatically, you had to be part of the order.

As far as what the sith did or didn't do according to our knowledge, the Jedi didn't know a lot that the sith were doing, the were in fact blindsided by the sith at Naboo, not having even known they still existed.  However, because we are the audience we know what the Jedi did not, that Sidious, and in turn Palpatine, would not have more than one apprentice at a time.  This was to keep the sith a secret from the Jedi, the Sith would come in numbers of only two, a master and an apprentice.  Larger numbers would have been impossible to keep from the Jedi order.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

1) anything from the books is suspect. Sorry. They're crap. That's my professional opinion.

2) the prophecy doesn't talk about the sith. it talks about balance to the force. Therefore, if you're casting it in terms of light/dark, then you can't say that just because there's no more sith, there's balance. For one thing, that doesnt' indicate balance. For another, it doesn't eliminate weilders of the dark side.

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

Alright, if we are going PURELY movie we really don't know a whole lot about this topic.  We never heard what the proficy is, just a statement by Mace Windu about "the one that will bring Balance to the force", this hardley tells us what the profecy is, excactly.  Other than that there isn't much about the proficies in any of the movies that isn't very broad.

It seemed to me that the Jedi were elluding to the point that the chosen one would stop the dark side overall, why would they be exited about more sith?  I mean, if Qui-Gon thought that Anakin was going to make more sith would he really have been so insistant on training him?  While bringing balance to the force sounds like evening out ying and yang, I think that it is something different altogether, it doesn't make sense otherwise.

Secondly, I am pretty sure that during the conversation on corrusaunt in episode one that Sidious says something about the one master/one apprentice form of the sith, but I'm not positive.  I'd have to check that one but I don't feel like digging that movie out, since I only really watch the origionals anymore anyway.  I guess if you say there isn't such a conversation I'll take your word for it.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Sidious does not, to my knowledge make a statement to that effect. Yoda does, and Mace concurs, however. We might as well accept that as fact.

However, there is no evidence supporting that "bringing balance to the force" refers to eliminating the dark side completely and especially the Sith specifically. Sure, I guess I can concede that it's a possible meaning, though it doesn't sound like one. However, if that IS the meaning of the prophecy, then why would anyone be thinking about such a prophecy during a time when they don't think any are about anyway?

I don't think your interpretation holds up to to any sort of close or careful reading. I'm not sure I follow your middle paragraph. I don't think I can see logical patterns you believe are self evident. If there are sith and no one thinks there were any, then the most natural of responses is to investigate. But I can't see how they anyone, even Qui-Gon, would want to tout the fulfillment of a prophecy that, as far as they're concerned, is already fulfilled. IF the prophecy refers to the elimination of the dark side in general, that's a little more believable, but it does certainly mean that there are more weilders of the dark side than the single master/apprentice Sith.

However, the problems the Jedi are going through seems less related to the existence of Dark Side users than some other internal problem. They can't see as well as they should, their feelings are clouded, they don't know how to respond to things. This is not a problem of just the Dark Side being around, or else they'd NOTICE that they can't see something they should. If they're that blind, it seems to me it would be something they're doing wrong.

I never argued Qui-Gon though Anakin would make more Sith. I'm not sure wehre you got that. He doesn't know, they can't see the future, and they don't know how Anakin will bring balance to the force. I don't think that his initiation into the Sith is necessarily part of the fulfillment, it just happened due to poor choices, but in the end he finally straightens out.

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

2) the prophecy doesn't talk about the sith. it talks about balance to the force. Therefore, if you're casting it in terms of light/dark, then you can't say that just because there's no more sith, there's balance. For one thing, that doesnt' indicate balance. For another, it doesn't eliminate weilders of the dark side.

Sorry, this is where I got the Qui-Gon knowing that Anakin will bring about more sith theory.  I thought you were saying the prophecy actually meant bringing balance to the force by making more sith and/or dark side users.  My middle paragraph that you didn't understand was all about this, too, so you might as well just ignore it, concider it a malcommunication.

I was under the impression that bringing balance to the force had something to do with either
A) Ending the use of the dark side
or
B) straigtening out the Jedi order, ect.\
or a mix of the two.

So I guess Anakin, in the end, does both of those, at least indirectly.  By destroying the sith lord he creates a hole for a clear headed strong race of Jedi to emerge, and wipes out the sith leadership, if not all the sith in existance.

[Dex1138]

The one who will bring balance to the Force....

GL has stated that this refers to Anakin's redemption and destroying the Emperor. Which leaves us with one known good Jedi and one with potential.
That aside could he just as easily restored the balance by wiping out the Jedi Order? Just something to amuse your brain. I mean by Ep2 we know something is wrong with the Jedi. Mace says something about admitting their powers are diminished. They don't notice Palpatine under their noses! (Assuming he is Sidious, not a proven fact yet, but that's another thread)

Sith and Dark Jedi are not the same thing. It is possible to be one and not the other. It just happens that in the movies the only Dark Jedi we see are Sith.

[Nicadymus]

OK.  Being an avid fan of both the movies and the books, I think I need some ground rules for this discussion outlined.  Are we limiting our discussions to just the "facts and theories" derived from the movies, or are we bringing in "facts and theories" from the books?  It seems that Gorgon is arguing from a perspective which is drawn from reading some of the books while SE is arguing from a strict movie standpoint.  In order to offer reasonable arguments to this thread, I need to know our basis of facts and theories.  The books offer a great deal more history, but have been criticized for potential lack of accuracy.  So where are we arguing from?