Star Wars musings

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

"Rules are for people who can't make up their own."

I refuse to acknowledge the books. THat's all I can say on the subject.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

the books are super fanboyish... but I might allow the Han Solo books, but anything by Timothy Zahn or anything after Jedi is out... including comics...

Splinter of the minds eye is even suspect...

[Nicadymus]

I suppose I need to clarify that when I said books I ment the RPG books, not the novels.  I don't enjoy the novels and would never include that information in any argument I present.

With that clarification, I repeat the question.

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

Well, both SE and I are, at this point, using on theories derived from currently released films.  And I think we already resolved the topic with

bringing balance to the force had something to do with either
A) Ending the use of the dark side
or
B) straigtening out the Jedi order, ect.
or a mix of the two.

Which, to my knowledge, SE doesn't argue with, he is a more into the second of the two, but we both seem to agree that a slight mix of these is what bringing a balance to the force meant, since without the books or the third episode we really don't have very much detailed information.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

actually, I don't think the Dark Side was ended. I'm certain we can allow Clone Wars eps in as canon, since GL not just allows them  but actually distributes them on his web site. And there is a dark force weilder who is no a Sith in that ep. THere's no reason to think, even from canon movie/tv, that no one uses the dark side anymore just because the Sith are gone. So I think it's more balance in the force, though the elimination of the Sith achieves that end (but so did the destruction of the Jedi order).

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

Yeah, I should have made that say

Destroying the Sith (not necissarily permanently)

Instead of destroying the use of the dark side, because I agree with you there.  As long as there is a force there'll be the use of the dark side.  But I think we basically agree that with the information we retrive from the movies, the prophesied one will unfragment the Jedi order, which is done through reducing the Jedi to one person and destroying the known sith.  So, I really mean the destroying the Sith as a way to achieve the unclouding of the Jedi order, which is why I concider it a mix of the two.  

[Nicadymus]

Ok... so I am clear...

You both agree that the prophesy is about brining balance to the Force.  There is just some debate about exactly what that balance is and the means to acheiving it, correct?

Well, to put in my 2 cents, I would have to argue that bringing balance to the Force involved attempting the equalization of the use of both the light and dark side of the force.  As the Sith had limited their number to 2, at least according to what can be inferred from Yoda and Mace, and the Jedi had been fairly successful at the removal of a majority of the other varieties of dark side force users, such as the character from the cartoons who weilds 2 lightsabers and is assigned by Dooku to kill Anakin, then the most logical course would be to reduce the Jedi in number and tip the scales away from the light side back toward equilibrium.

Now we hear from Obi-won that Vader was responsible for hunting down and killing the Jedi (I believe this is said episode IV, and again referenced in Episode VI, but I would have to double check), thus, we can reasonably conclude that he was actively involved in bringing balance to the Force by evening out the scales.

The only question I think that really remains is, "when do you have a true balance of the Force?"  Is it when there is an equivalent number of practicing users on both sides, or is it when neither side holds complete sway?  In the old republic the light held sway.  During the Rebellion, the dark side.  At the end of episode VI??? who can be sure given Luke's unique perspective.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

of course Vaders crusade also limits the Jedi to two... ie Obi-Wan and Yoda and then Luke and Yoda, and then luke and Leia (potentially)

One cant help but think that this is on purpose... after all why would someone as in tune with the force as Vader (Anakin) let the head of the Jedi order and his former teacher live... (well ok, out of spite...  but I think you see what I'm getting at)

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

the problem with that view, in my opinion, is that's a pointless balance. there's no reason for it.

Plus it never happens. For a short time there are two of each Jedi and Sith, but we can still extrapolate more Dark side users, and there really isn't anything to say specifically that there are NO other Jedi ANYWHERE. I mean, if those two escape, why not a few others? plus, at the end of Jedi, there are no Sith, and if you're counting Leia as one to make your numbers even, there are, briefly THREE Jedi (as Anakin forsakes the Dark Side).

Though I question whether you can call them "Jedi" in the traditional sense anyway. Sure, they're Jedi (the movie is called the RETURN of the Jedi, after all) but it's not like they've formed an order or are the same thing they were before. This specific argument isn't about nomenclature, it's about putting Jedi and Sith opposed to each other. That dichotomy doesn't exist at all by the end of Ep. 3. By the end of Ep 6, neither party exists, so I think it's pointless to say the point of the prophecy was to equalize the power or numbers of either.

At the end of the chronology presented in the 6 movies and the TV series we're given, there is only one Jedi. And one potential Jedi. And no Sith. And a lot of old guidence being given to the new Jedi. So neither power or numbers of even the inheritors of these factions is in balance. In fact, one could argue that neither order could be allowed to exist if there was to be a balance.

So, the question is, what would the destruction of those orders achieve? THe elimination of the Sith removes the organized teaching of fear and hatred as means to power. The destruction of the Jedi removes the institutionalized teaching of permanent abstinance and unnatural refrain from affection and social interaction. Overall "influence" rests still with those who wish to use the light side of the Force, so I have to conclude to my earlier position, that the "balance" spoken of in the prophecy is about balanced lives, emotionally and lifestyle-wise.

[Prometheus]

I'd been thinking about this sort of thing for a while, although I won't really be drawing on many facts to base my theories on...more just general impressions. I'll also be going somewhat off track, but if that annoys anyone, just ignore me.

To me the Force itself seems like an awful thing. Every Force-user I've seen gets railroaded by the thing. As far as facts are concerned, I guess Obi-Wan as much as says that it 'guides' you. Guides...right.

What I see is a large number of Jedi that either have excised their emotions completely or are so dominated by emotion that their emotions control them fairly completely. Neither result seems natural or terribly good to me, and aside from peacekeeping---something that could probably be done by a police force---the Jedi never really seemed to accomplish anything that they didn't start.

I'm not trying to say that the Force is a malevolent force in the world, or that it has any form of intelligence. It's just that, from my observations, it seems to control the user and direct them toward an undesirable emotional state on either side of the equation.

Just food for thought...did anyone ever see the Force make anyone happy?

Perhaps restoring balance to the force would allow this to change. That I could accept.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Thanks for putting that so eloquently, Prom. I concur. Though I don't think it's the FORCE that did the driving to extremes, it's the organizations of force users. the Sith organization/philosophy demands being dominated by your emotions, while the Jedi institution demanded an unhealthy excise of emotions. Neither of which allows a balanced individual. Bringing balance to the force must mean allowing people to experience and enjoy their emotions while not being controlled by them.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Yin and yang aspects in balance then, and I agree with you Eric, I was just exploring a tangental path. It is possible that in Anakins twisted mind he thought that destroying the Jedi down to two was balancing the force...
After all one has to assume he heard from someone that he might be the one who brings balance to the force and that was the seed that started his rebellion. Episode 2 proves he doesnt have a great grasp of politics or intellectual pursuits after all.
As annoying as Luke was in Episode IV, he was much much more complete as a person before he finished his Jedi Training. Luke in episode VI is pretty much a cipher, his exuberance is gone, his humor is gone, he is consumed by the force and almost consumed by the dark side. When we see him in the end, he shows the first real emotion he's let free the whole movie after he's laid the specter of his father to rest both literally and physically. Maybe he gets the real balance after his experience with the emperor?

[Nicadymus]

So, Mad Doc, my question is, "Does Luke bring balance to the Force by accepting it, yet not denying his emotions, or does Anakin bring about the balance due to his unique relationship to Luke, and the 'instruction' that he offers him during the movies?"

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

I think Anakin restores it by the sacrifice he decides to make, he teaches Luke that love is more important than power and emotion by killing the emperor. What he does at the end is not logical, and controlled it isnt selfish and evil but it does protect his family (Luke and Leia). What he does is loving but impossible without Lukes patience and surrender. Still Anakin is forced to make the ultimate choice and passes the test with flying colors.

[Nicadymus]

OK so that leaves us with Luke, who has, as we see in the final battle of ROTJ, a part of him that has tasted the dark side, and a part of him that is desperately clinging to the light (see Luke under the stairs 1/2 in the light and 1/2 in shadow as Vader talks about his feelings for his friends).

Is Luke's unique perspective of embracing emotions, yet controlling them, what you deem as balance to the force, since the Jedi completly denied emotions and the Sith completely embraced them, or is there something else?