Author Topic: When is it Over?  (Read 8728 times)

Archon

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Re: When is it Over?
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2005, 01:39:22 AM »
Ok, well, in my experience, average people aren't any less moronic than teenagers. For example, I would classify Gorgon as being more intelligent than 98% of normal people, of any age group, and he is a teenager. I have taught teachers who have gone through college and are far past their teens, and my brother did so as well as a teen. I don't think that it is fair to limit the spectrum to just teenagers, because people, to me, are stupid until they prove themselves otherwise.
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Master Gopher

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Re: When is it Over?
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2005, 02:15:27 AM »
Agree'd.

Actually, I sometimes sort of half-argue (I don't *really* believe this yet, so you can't oppose me on it :P) that people as they get older often lose the creativity on spontanaeity they may have had as teeneagers, and through years of schooling and work become very used to thinking in certain ways.

On the other hand, if we're going to talk IQ, you don't really change between ages 7 and 70. Not that I agree with the results of intelligence tests; I think they are very good at measuring how good you are at doing intelligence tests.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2005, 02:15:50 AM by Master_Gopher »

Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: When is it Over?
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2005, 10:24:36 PM »
Thanks stacer and Chimera for the thoughtful posts. (Now I don't have to put any effort into it.)
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Chimera

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Re: When is it Over?
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2005, 12:35:18 AM »
I appreciate being appreciated. You are on my favorite people list now, Ookla.  ;D
There is just no way you are the pine-scented air. --Billy Collins, "Litany"

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Re: When is it Over?
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2005, 09:49:28 AM »
Quote
Actually, I sometimes sort of half-argue (I don't *really* believe this yet, so you can't oppose me on it :P) that people as they get older often lose the creativity on spontanaeity they may have had as teeneagers, and through years of schooling and work become very used to thinking in certain ways.

"I disagree"

As you get more mature, you can more discipline and focus. I don't think that you lose creativity. YOu sometimes show less of it because you reject a lot of it before it makes it out, because you want the best.

Of course, not everyone gets mature, but those are the people who aren't interested in their creativity in the first place.

Also, for a "When is it over" back on topic bit: It's over for certain when you find out your best friend has been trying to convince your gf to dump you and go with him out of jealousy for the last several months and she's finally going with it.

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Re: When is it Over?
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2005, 11:49:15 AM »
I think that as people get older, they become more set in their ways. People just like things as they were when they were young 'uns. Witness the 'emulation project' - 30, 40 year olds all playing games from when they were 20 or so. This is the root of 'traditionalists', perhaps. "Things were better in my day", for example.

What this means, disregarding their amount of creativity (and I doubt that we can measure that over time), that the end product of their creativity tends to be similar to what they did before, and as such seems less creative to those brought up on newer and different sources of creativity.

Of course, this does not always hold true. Gibson has changed his writing over time to reflect advances in culture - 'All of Tomorrow's Parties' feels vastly different and newer than 'Neuromancer'. The computer game industry, despite still having many of the same people as it did 20 years ago, churns out games that are widely divergent from games of even 5 years ago.

YMMV. :)

Quote
Also, for a "When is it over" back on topic bit: It's over for certain when you find out your best friend has been trying to convince your gf to dump you and go with him out of jealousy for the last several months and she's finally going with it.


Is that when you jumped over the table and crowbarred them to death? You have ginger hair, a crowbar must be your favoured weapon.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2005, 11:50:12 AM by Charlie82 »
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Re: When is it Over?
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2005, 01:10:21 PM »
One thought before I fall into bed:

I don't think feeling a certain nostalgia for something from your youth like a video game or a song means you are any less creative or set in your ways as a, what do you call it, seasoned citizen, than it does when you are young.

I think what shows your intelligence and creativity at any age is your level of concern for the subject.  Are you into something, say, because everyone else is or because you heard about it though the grapevine, or are you interested through a genuine intellectual curiosity that has you digging where others dabble?

Do you like a particular musical group enough to have all their CDs, or just what you've heard on the radio?  Do you try to understand the theory of relativity and study up on it, or do you just take the paragraphs out of your grammar school textbook and call it good?  Why does this person like this old video game?  Because it is old?  Or does he really like the play better than a bloodbath shooter?   ???

There's more to it.  And wow, my subject moved.

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Re: When is it Over?
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2005, 02:11:24 PM »
Quote
There's more to it.  And wow, my subject moved.

Yeah, we do that. You'll note that one thing we don't really enforce that other boards do is staying on topic.

JP Dogberry

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Re: When is it Over?
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2005, 11:02:17 PM »
So yeah, I here that's theres this new Fantastic Four movie.
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Re: When is it Over?
« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2005, 04:55:51 AM »
Now we don't need to go THAT off topic. We can go to movies to discuss F4.  ;)

I'm interested in this creativity discussion. Do you get less creative as you get older? Or more? I definitely believe we lose some of our spontaneity as we mold into a cultural norm, but I also think that life experience can give your more breadth and knowledge. I feel like each year I gain more insight and understanding. So I guess I'm kind of walking a middle line on this debate, like I usually do.
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Oseleon

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Re: When is it Over?
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2005, 11:53:06 AM »
Its over when you catch her making out with another guy on her bed on Valentines day while you stand there dumbstruck with 2 bags of Valentines gifts in your hands and really silly look on your face

As to creativity, e has a point,  You do self-censor more as you mature.  However this CAN be seen as a loss of creativity because fewer ideas make it out to be explored and fleshed out.  
10 years ago, I was scribbling every wild thought into a notebook.  Now It's maybe once a week.  I lost confidance in my own brilliance after exposure to too many brilliant authors.  Now there is this voice in my head (wrongly) saying to me, that If I cant write Fantasy as well as Tolkien or Lewis, if I cant write Sci-Fi as well as Herbert, If I cant be as funny as David Cross, then I shouldnt try
These thoughts are bull*, A self fulfilling prophecy, If you dont TRY to create, you will never improve and thus, never achieve the prowes you desire
Alles!!!

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Re: When is it Over?
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2005, 12:15:39 PM »
True, some people over-sensor. However, I find I write DOWN most of my ideas, but I don't develop most of them.

This is good, because I have more ideas than I'll ever use.

Oseleon

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Re: When is it Over?
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2005, 12:52:06 PM »
Another step I learned from a Playwright I knew years ago...
Never discuss a creative idea with people when it's in it's create state.  Wait until you are fleshing it out.. Adding the chrome to your first draft

The thinking is, If you just tell someone "I had this idea for a one-man show where...." You have already given the idea an outlet... It is no longer banging against your chest to get out there.  Inspiration often comes with urgency of expression, Express it to the PAGE before anyone else.  

I have seen ideas of my own come like Lightning and then fade away after I discussed them with someone.  I once had a brilliant 1 man show, worked out in my head... Settings, Stage Directions, mood and dialogue... I was bursting!  I franticly outlined the whole thing to a good friend in a dinner one night...  
It never made it to the page and is now lost.  
Alles!!!

42

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Re: When is it Over?
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2005, 01:00:44 PM »
See my aesthetics professor had a lot to say about creativity. It ties in a lot with originality. We argued that there are creative spheres. Some creative spheres encompass other spheres. Often when people talk about being creative it is in the context of their own sphere of creativity. However, people often act like they are being creative in all spheres, though this is almost never the case. And widespreading leaps of inspired creativity are almost never limited to one individual.

Thus we came to the argument of wether or not children are creative. Surprisingly, when examined from a social perspective of looking at the works of children as a whole, children aren't really creative. In fact, children do and think pretty much the same things as other children. However, when you examine it from the child's perspective, they are very creative inside their own sphere. They are doing things and thinking things that they hadn't thought of previously, making them creative in their own minds and often the minds of their parents and care-givers.

The sad truth is that if you desire to be Creative in the eyes of everyone on Earth, well that just isn't going to happen. The chances that someone else hasn't had the same idea are slim to none.

So then we start defining creativity outside of originality. In many ways, creativity is more of a quest for individuality than originality. Course, when you go into markets, this is a bad thing. You want others to relate to your work and if it is wholy something unique to you, well then many people can't relate and won't buy your product. Not to mention that people are social creatures who activily seek acceptence in groups in order to survive. High school students are a good example. If you walk into a high school art class (or even a college one) you might be surprised to see that the students are almost always doing the same them or subject and use simular elements. And there are a lot of reasons for this, mostly being that the desire for acceptence outways the desire for individuality. So creativity for individuality sake has some shaking footings.

It also helps to look at the opposite of creativity, destructivity. Now some argue that the two are one and the same. This poses several problems. It is true that they share many things in common, but if they are the same then neither can really exists--we would just call them both "change." But creativity and destrectivity are characteristics of change that have differing attributes. Destructivity is the process of change that ends, creativity is the process of change that continues. In other words, a destructive act does not produce more results, it just ends or the results that it does produce are so unlike the previous state that they cannot be considered related. Creativity, leads to more creativity.

As for the topic of inhibitions, I tend to agree with those who find that having boundries actually spurs them to be more creative. Those who don't allow those boundries to be set, often have results that are just muddled not suitable to be used by others. If the end result has no meaning or no use to others or even harms others, then it is not creative--it is destructive.

So to weigh in on the "who is more creative: adults or teenagers?" I would say that adults usually are more creative because they have more tools to use than teenagers. Teenagers are usually just creative in their own minds.

This post has gone on too long, I will end there and maybe post more later.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 01:02:00 PM by 42 »
The Folly of youth is to think that intelligence is a subsitute for experience. The folly of age is to think that experience is a subsitute for intelligence.

Chimera

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Re: When is it Over?
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2005, 01:27:04 PM »
Quote
As for the topic of inhibitions, I tend to agree with those who find that having boundries actually spurs them to be more creative. Those who don't allow those boundries to be set, often have results that are just muddled not suitable to be used by others. If the end result has no meaning or no use to others or even harms others, then it is not creative--it is destructive.

This reminds me of the mantra I learned in every creative writing class: that you have to know the rules before you can break them. Otherwise you are just making mistakes. The argument behind this mantra is that a true craftsman is aware of what he is doing at all times. Daniel Handler, the real author behind Lemony Snicket, knew the area of middle grade fiction well, and what was the norm. His books went against the norm, and one of the reasons that they are so effective is that he is constantly drawing attention to this by poking fun at the norm..."If you want to read a book with a happy ending, put this book down immediately and run away..." I loved reading his books in my children's lit class because he broke so many of the "rules" I had learned and yet did it in such a way that the books were still entertaining. But Daniel Handler obviously had a grasp of the "rules" before he started breaking them. You can't destroy, as 42 says, just for destruction's sake and then call it creativity.

You have a lot of good things to say here 42. I think I agree with most of it. I'll have to ponder some more.
There is just no way you are the pine-scented air. --Billy Collins, "Litany"

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