Author Topic: X-Men -- ***Spoilers***  (Read 15019 times)

The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: X-Men -- ***Spoilers***
« Reply #75 on: May 28, 2003, 11:28:37 PM »
I'm not being so obtuse. But we must be using different terms. You're using "hero" to mean "protagonist." I'm using it to mean someone who does heroic things. in your definition, "anti-hero" would mean "antagonist," which makes it a fairly useless term. I'm not being so ridiculous as to say a hero has to fit an perfect fit, but I think that "hero" is a term better used for a more narrow range of character than "protagonist."

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Re: X-Men -- ***Spoilers***
« Reply #76 on: May 28, 2003, 11:37:34 PM »
Look, I don't want to get into a semantic argument about it, I just want the protein.
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Re: X-Men -- ***Spoilers***
« Reply #77 on: May 28, 2003, 11:46:39 PM »
Ok, maybe it *is* the lit student in me coming out, but I only bring it up because I find it to be an important and useful distinction, not just nitpicking.

And here's some Soylent Green. Enjoy your protein.

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Re: X-Men -- ***Spoilers***
« Reply #78 on: May 28, 2003, 11:50:08 PM »
I have to agree with SE. The protagonist and hero are not the same thing. Just because a story has a protagonist doesn't mean that they are a hero.

I would go as far as to say that heroes belong to a certain kind of story, not just any story in general. I might even say that heroes are tied to morality tales.
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Re: X-Men -- ***Spoilers***
« Reply #79 on: May 28, 2003, 11:52:32 PM »
I don't know if I'd say "morality tales" as (to be semantic again) that implies a certain type and form, but certainly they involve stories that carry a certain moral discussion germain to the culture they're written for.

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Re: X-Men -- ***Spoilers***
« Reply #80 on: May 29, 2003, 09:46:46 AM »
 :DYum!!! SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!!!! :o
« Last Edit: May 29, 2003, 09:47:11 AM by ElJeffe »
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Re: X-Men -- ***Spoilers***
« Reply #81 on: May 29, 2003, 06:06:59 PM »
SE.  I will agree to the point that a 'Hero' is different than a 'hero.'  One is a person who does heroic things.  However, the second is the commonly-accepted term for the protagonist of a story.  The first title is far more subjective than the second--one man's "Hero" is another man's despot.  

These characters were presented as heros, and perhaps even as "Heros" in a Robin-Hood sort of way.

And, in argument against the power-outage not killing anyone--the backup generators wouldn't have worked.  That was the entire point of using the pulse.  Whatever a hospital used, the casino presented could afford far better.  If it took out the casino's security systems for thirty seconds, then it certainly did the same for hospitals, street-lights, and other vital utilities.  People died.  Maybe not many, but in a city of that size, and in the rules of physics they presented, people died.  
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Re: X-Men -- ***Spoilers***
« Reply #82 on: May 29, 2003, 06:14:35 PM »
I'm not sure if hero is a commonly accepted term for protagonist. It seems to to me that interchanging the two is a common misunderstanding, not acceptable usage.
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Re: X-Men -- ***Spoilers***
« Reply #83 on: May 29, 2003, 06:18:31 PM »
Every book on writing I've read, nearly every writing panel I've attended that addresses the subject, and nearly every writer I know uses hero as the term that means 'main point of view protagonist of the story.'
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Re: X-Men -- ***Spoilers***
« Reply #84 on: May 29, 2003, 06:23:14 PM »
"Common misunderstanding" counts as "commonly accepted term" when you're discussing language. That's what it means. The simple rule is that if everybody does it, it's right.
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Re: X-Men -- ***Spoilers***
« Reply #85 on: May 29, 2003, 11:07:47 PM »
It's right, but not precise. I'm saying that when you fall to using "hero" interchangeably with "protagonist" than you're losing important nuances that can be used to elucidate matters. I'm suggesting that rather than defend the common usage, it's profitable to adopt a better definition to clear matters up.

And no, I don't think the protagonists in Ocean's 11 are heroes in the same sense as Robin Hood.

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Re: X-Men -- ***Spoilers***
« Reply #86 on: May 30, 2003, 12:12:35 AM »
In order to have a intelligible discussion, you'll have to make a distinction.

A common mistake means that basicly everyone makes the same mistake commonly. For example, in my field people interchange the words graphic and picture a lot. Technically, they're not the same thing, but people in the field exchange them a lot unless the discussion demands otherwise.

This discussion demands otherwise, because a hero is usually the protagonist, but the protagonist doesn't have to be a hero. Therefor a distinction needs to be made.
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Re: X-Men -- ***Spoilers***
« Reply #87 on: May 30, 2003, 08:46:04 AM »
I disagree.  In my industry, the two are synonyms, and quibbling over distinctions is silly.  Hero=Main Viewpoint Protagonist. You can write a book without a hero, but it is difficult to do.  99% of the stories we experience have one--and Ocean's 11 is certainly included in the 99.  If you want to make a distinction here, simply say you didn't find them very 'heroic' which means something else.

If you'll notice, I said the character's in the movie were PRESENTED as Robin-Hood like characters.  The viewers were encouraged not to think about the consequences of the heros' actions.  Indeed, the core of the main hero's conflict was enhanced by hinting that his actions were done in the name of love, rather than money.  They made several of the characters comedic sidekicks, and even threw in a small 'apprentice' storyline.    

The 'hero' of a story is completely dependent on viewpoint presentation.  This story, if told with the exact same events, could be shown from the casino-owner's viewpoint.  If we were made to empathize with him as he struggled to protect his casino from bandits, he would instead become the hero of the story--if a tragic one.  The same could be done for a police man, or some random worker in the casino.  

The person with whom the reader/viewer is made to empathize becomes the hero of the story.  The only exception to this are anti-heroes, for whom our empathy may grow, but so does our level of discomfort.  In the end, when an Anti-Hero fails, we are glad, though we often pity him at the same time.  Michael Douglas in "Falling Down" is a wonderful example.

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Re: X-Men -- ***Spoilers***
« Reply #88 on: May 30, 2003, 08:58:44 AM »
Then you've missed what I've said. Because I made the distinction of what a "hero" is and and then said they don't fit it, which is what you told me to say, only using a more strict terminology. One that is less confusing than using "hero" in two different ways. Using "hero" to mean something, and then using "heroic" as something other than the adjectival form is definitely confusing. I'm just arguing for more precise language.

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Re: X-Men -- ***Spoilers***
« Reply #89 on: May 30, 2003, 12:09:31 PM »
I still agree with Saint. As I see things now, if EUOL insists on not being clear then there is no point in discussing.
The Folly of youth is to think that intelligence is a subsitute for experience. The folly of age is to think that experience is a subsitute for intelligence.