Author Topic: King Tavarangian (WOK Spoilers!!!)  (Read 7142 times)

zebobes

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King Tavarangian (WOK Spoilers!!!)
« on: September 18, 2010, 03:59:08 PM »
I realized something strange about Tavarangian in my reread. When him (or his associates) meet Szeth for the first time, they used a Soul Caster. If that's the case, then why did he need Jasnah's help in the first place to rescue his granddaughter? Was it a plot by him just to see Jasnah's soul casting ability in action? Is Tavarangian himself a soulcaster? Maybe he just wanted to keep his abilities hidden?

Guinevere

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Re: King Tavarangian (WOK Spoilers!!!)
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2010, 04:19:23 PM »
You're right!  I didn't put that together.

"The figure opened his hand, revealing a gemstone suspended in his palm by a chain wrapped around his fingers....The chained gemstone on the man's palm flashed.  The wall vanished, turned to smoke.  A Soulcaster." (pg. 451 harcover US version)

Hmmm.... my guess is that it has something to do with Jasnah.  Maybe Taravangian knew that her Soulcaster was a fake and wanted to see her Soulcast to see if she really could without the gemstones.  Perhaps the little blood experiment isn't his only one. 

Cheese Ninja

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Re: King Tavarangian (WOK Spoilers!!!)
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2010, 04:54:48 PM »
I noticed that too.  I like the idea of him covertly finding about Jasnah's abilities.  If what Kabsal said was true, a normal Soulcasting (using the fabrial) involves tapping on the stones,  then that stranger was doing it without a Soulcaster as well.  Also, the gemstone is on the man's palm, and no mention is made of the rings, bracelet, other gems, or fact that they usually go along the back of the hand.  Unless Jasnah has been wearing it backwards this whole time by accident?

I'm sure he didn't want to reveal what he and his people were capable of when Jasnah was around, but it's also possible that he just didn't have any of his people nearby.

Just to be clear, you can't Soulcast without gemstones, Jasnah needs the right type of stones infused with Stormlight to do any Soulcasting.  When she Soulcast that rock, she drained her Smokestone, when she killed the thieves, she cracked the Smokestone and drained the diamond and ruby.  She also needed a garnet to Soulcast Shallan's blood near the end.

Now here's my question, is Tavarangian allied with the ghostbloods?  Or a separate organization all on his own?

Munin

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Re: King Tavarangian (WOK Spoilers!!!)
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2010, 05:30:12 PM »
I realized something strange about Tavarangian in my reread. When him (or his associates) meet Szeth for the first time, they used a Soul Caster. If that's the case, then why did he need Jasnah's help in the first place to rescue his granddaughter? Was it a plot by him just to see Jasnah's soul casting ability in action? Is Tavarangian himself a soulcaster? Maybe he just wanted to keep his abilities hidden?
Maybe he learned how to Soulcast after seeing her do it?
There's a difference between what's best and what's right. What's best might be different tomorrow or the day after, but right and wrong will stay the same after a thousand years.

jcats

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Re: King Tavarangian (WOK Spoilers!!!)
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2010, 10:46:52 PM »
another possibility, what if what Tavarangian has, isn't a Normal Soulcaster?   basically, it has 1 gem, held in the palm of the hand.  the one Jasnah has, and Shallen had are both 3gems, across the back of the hand.

maybe his is not a maker, but a breaker, a more limited Fabrial that only dissolves objects?

Stormblessed

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Re: King Tavarangian (WOK Spoilers!!!)
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2010, 12:39:40 PM »
Now here's my question, is Tavarangian allied with the ghostbloods?  Or a separate organization all on his own?

I was under the impression that Tavarangian was the leader of the Ghostbloods, but I may have misunderstood the section.
"You've killed me. Bastards, you've killed me!
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Cheese Ninja

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Re: King Tavarangian (WOK Spoilers!!!)
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2010, 03:59:30 PM »
Now here's my question, is Tavarangian allied with the ghostbloods?  Or a separate organization all on his own?

I was under the impression that Tavarangian was the leader of the Ghostbloods, but I may have misunderstood the section.

If he is part of the ghostbloods, then him and Kabsal would have to be from different factions with different goals.  There wouldn't be any reason for an assassin with poisoned bread when your cooking staff makes all of Jasnah's meals.  Kabsal hides himself when he and Shallan are in the garden and they see Taravangian and Brother Ixil.  The question is, did Kabsal fear being recognized, or just the questions that would come from him not being recognized?

So far, Tavarangian's goals have consisted of, finding out more of what may happen by collecting and studying death quotes, and creating a strong and stable society.
Quote
“Stability. Those you killed were among the most powerful and influential men in Roshar.”
“How does that help stability?”
“Sometimes,” Taravangian said, “you must tear down a structure to build a new one with stronger walls.” He turned around, looking out over the ocean. “And we are going to need strong walls in the coming years. Very, very strong walls.”

All we know of the ghostbloods is that they were financing Shallan's father to become a high prince by way of the Soulcaster, and they had some stake in the battle that Kaladin was in where he killed the shardbearer. (possibly, Nan Helaran, it's bit of stretch, but http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfConservationOfDetail )

When Gavilar died:
Quote
The king coughed. “You can tell…Thaidakar…that he’s too late….”
“I don’t know who that is,” Szeth said, standing, his words slurring from his broken jaw. He held his hand to the side, resummoning his Shardblade.
The king frowned. “Then who…? Restares? Sadeas? I never thought…”

Amaram after Kaladin kills the shardbearer:
Quote
“…why Thaidakar would risk this?” Amaram was saying, speaking in a soft voice. “But who else would it be? The Ghostbloods grow more bold. We’ll need to find out who he was. Do we know anything about him?”
“He was Veden, Brightlord,” the stormwarden said. “Nobody I recognize. But I will investigate.”
...skipping stuff...
Amaram shook his head. “You’d have changed your mind. In a day or two, you’d have wanted the wealth and prestige—others would convince you of it. You’d have demanded that I return them to you. It took hours to decide, but Restares is right—this is what must be done. For the good of Alethkar.”

On the other hand, how many organizations have access to Soulcasters?

Munin

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Re: King Tavarangian (WOK Spoilers!!!)
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2010, 06:46:37 PM »
Quote
The king coughed. “You can tell…Thaidakar…that he’s too late….”
Something I'm curious about is what Thaidakar is too late for. To stop the treaty with the Parshendi?
There's a difference between what's best and what's right. What's best might be different tomorrow or the day after, but right and wrong will stay the same after a thousand years.

jacobfake

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Re: King Tavarangian (WOK Spoilers!!!)
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2010, 08:34:40 PM »
haha the Law of Conservation of Detail that's awesome. I was aware of it informally, but I'm totally stealing that link in the future. And I wouldn't make too much of the soulcaster angle because any organization with the resources to send shardbearers into random battles or to set up secret rooms that drain the blood from hundreds of people just to see what they say as they die is bound to have acquired a soulcaster somewhere along the way.

Stormblessed

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Re: King Tavarangian (WOK Spoilers!!!)
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2010, 07:17:08 AM »
Now here's my question, is Tavarangian allied with the ghostbloods?  Or a separate organization all on his own?

I was under the impression that Tavarangian was the leader of the Ghostbloods, but I may have misunderstood the section.

If he is part of the ghostbloods, then him and Kabsal would have to be from different factions with different goals.  There wouldn't be any reason for an assassin with poisoned bread when your cooking staff makes all of Jasnah's meals.  Kabsal hides himself when he and Shallan are in the garden and they see Taravangian and Brother Ixil.  The question is, did Kabsal fear being recognized, or just the questions that would come from him not being recognized?

If there's one thing we know about Taravangian is that he is sly, and trying very hard to hide who he really is. We have already established the fact that Taravangian didn't need a soulcaster, and he most likely brought Jasnah there to see if she could soulcast without a soulcaster. Establishing that she can, he wanted to get rid of her, so he sent Kabsal, someone who seemed completely untied to him in any way, to kill her. Even doing it in his own home will divert suspicion from him because no one would believe him to be that arrogant to think he could kill someone in his own home and get away with it. Who else is better. I think Kasbal hid from Taravangian and Brother Ixil, one to seem unrelated to Taravangian and two because he is not a true brother of the order Brother Ixil might wonder who he was.

When Gavilar died:
Quote
The king coughed. “You can tell…Thaidakar…that he’s too late….”
“I don’t know who that is,” Szeth said, standing, his words slurring from his broken jaw. He held his hand to the side, resummoning his Shardblade.
The king frowned. “Then who…? Restares? Sadeas? I never thought…”

Amaram after Kaladin kills the shardbearer:
Quote
“…why Thaidakar would risk this?” Amaram was saying, speaking in a soft voice. “But who else would it be? The Ghostbloods grow more bold. We’ll need to find out who he was. Do we know anything about him?”
“He was Veden, Brightlord,” the stormwarden said. “Nobody I recognize. But I will investigate.”
...skipping stuff...
Amaram shook his head. “You’d have changed your mind. In a day or two, you’d have wanted the wealth and prestige—others would convince you of it. You’d have demanded that I return them to you. It took hours to decide, but Restares is right—this is what must be done. For the good of Alethkar.”

On the other hand, how many organizations have access to Soulcasters?

Btw who is Thaidakar? At first I thought he was some random name who would become apparent in a latter book, but it seems I have missed his name a couple of times (i'm not very good with names and i haven't got around to my second reading yet). Do we know who he is, or are we only making wild guesses?
"You've killed me. Bastards, you've killed me!
 -- Darkeyed Soldier

Munin

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Re: King Tavarangian (WOK Spoilers!!!)
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2010, 02:06:45 PM »
Btw who is Thaidakar? At first I thought he was some random name who would become apparent in a latter book, but it seems I have missed his name a couple of times (i'm not very good with names and i haven't got around to my second reading yet). Do we know who he is, or are we only making wild guesses?
We don't really know yet.

From what Amaram said, he might be the leader of the Ghostbloods.
There's a difference between what's best and what's right. What's best might be different tomorrow or the day after, but right and wrong will stay the same after a thousand years.

Stormblessed

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Re: King Tavarangian (WOK Spoilers!!!)
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2010, 02:14:51 PM »
Btw who is Thaidakar? At first I thought he was some random name who would become apparent in a latter book, but it seems I have missed his name a couple of times (i'm not very good with names and i haven't got around to my second reading yet). Do we know who he is, or are we only making wild guesses?
We don't really know yet.

From what Amaram said, he might be the leader of the Ghostbloods.

That's good. For a second there, I thought I had missed something crucial.
"You've killed me. Bastards, you've killed me!
 -- Darkeyed Soldier

guy

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Re: King Tavarangian (WOK Spoilers!!!)
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2010, 06:15:12 PM »
does anyone else get the idea that the gostbloods are like team rocket from pokemon?  I mean they are supposedly a secret organization but everybody seems to know about them

Guinevere

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Re: King Tavarangian (WOK Spoilers!!!)
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2010, 08:27:35 PM »
Maybe this is a stab in the dark, but do we know Shallan's father's name???  Thaidakar, perhaps??

wolverinehokie

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Re: King Tavarangian (WOK Spoilers!!!)
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2010, 11:21:15 PM »
I think Tavarangian is the leader of the Seventeenth Shard and the recipient of Hoid's letter.