Author Topic: *Spoilers* General Shard List  (Read 26431 times)

Never

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2010, 03:37:05 AM »
Tien actually did not die. The body Kaladin found was placed there to look like Tien died. Tien is fact now part of a supersecret rock hunting squad. Just knowing of their existence is instant death.  :P

Wait.... are you posting from BEYOND THE GRAVE?

Omelethead

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2010, 03:53:20 AM »
I'm re-reading Elantris again and I'm like whoa. There are so many religions, but none of them seem to be linked directly to a shard. Are the religions independed of the shards, or are there other shards on Sel we don't know about. Or maybe some shards came and left like Odium did?

But then again, there is some similarity between Jesker and Aona, mainly that of the Dor. But in addition, I have a theory that Aona put her shard essence into the land, which is why there is such a strong connection between the land and the aons (thus the roed occured when aona's shard was shattered). If this is true, then it would be similar to Jaddeth who is imprisoned in the rock.

So in the end I am really confused.  ???

Religions don't have to be tied to Shards. There could be multiple interpretations of one Shard, or a religion that incorporates multiple Shards (somewhat like the Kandra, who know of both Ruin and Preservation), or a religion that springs up completely separately.

And in Elantris, Shu-Dereth and Shu-Korath (IIRC) were both interpretations of a central religion/figure (the one from whom Jesker and Dula religion comes from).

It would be nice to match Shards to religions, but it's not a sure thing.

Stormblessed

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2010, 03:59:00 AM »
I realise this. On Scadril the same thing occurs. Only the Terrismen know anything about the shards.

However there are similarities, and I am trying to pick out the information that may be related to a shard with that a just pure fiction..

Notice that Shu-Keseg preaches unity and Shu-Dereth and Shu-Korath both come from Shu-Keseg. To me, unity is very similar to the shard held by the Almighty on Roshar. It could be possible that at one stage the Almighty visited Sel, followed by Odium. (maybe??)
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happyman

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2010, 05:03:31 PM »
I'm re-reading Elantris again and I'm like whoa. There are so many religions, but none of them seem to be linked directly to a shard. Are the religions independed of the shards, or are there other shards on Sel we don't know about. Or maybe some shards came and left like Odium did?

But then again, there is some similarity between Jesker and Aona, mainly that of the Dor. But in addition, I have a theory that Aona put her shard essence into the land, which is why there is such a strong connection between the land and the aons (thus the roed occured when aona's shard was shattered). If this is true, then it would be similar to Jaddeth who is imprisoned in the rock.

So in the end I am really confused.  ???

This is very, very true.  Mistborn made that about as clear as could be---only the Terris people, as far as we knew, had any inkling about the true nature of their world.

However, in Warbreaker, we have different branches of a religion that does seem to be connected back to the single shard that made the world.  They have changed in many ways, but the religious significance of the Returned seems to have a basis in fact.

In Elantris, the Dor is very real, and although the Elantrians were worshiped, they probably had their own religion that was somewhat better informed.  We see a crazy mixture of truth and falsehood interacting in all the religions that we see in Elantris.  I just can't help but wonder what the connections are to the Shards floating around, if any.

Religions don't have to be tied to Shards. There could be multiple interpretations of one Shard, or a religion that incorporates multiple Shards (somewhat like the Kandra, who know of both Ruin and Preservation), or a religion that springs up completely separately.

And in Elantris, Shu-Dereth and Shu-Korath (IIRC) were both interpretations of a central religion/figure (the one from whom Jesker and Dula religion comes from).

It would be nice to match Shards to religions, but it's not a sure thing.
Nature hates being reified.

guy

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2010, 08:25:37 PM »
what happens to shardholders if they already had abilities? like Sazed being a feruchemist and taking hold of Ruin and Preservation, could he somehow store godly abilities in some kind of metal for later use? does he simply lose his ability? what would happen if a mistborn took some other shard, could they use that shard as a power source? or do conflicting abilities simply forbid you to take up shards?

Ari54

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #65 on: September 29, 2010, 04:36:30 AM »
I would like to insert here that we don't know all the shards involved in Roshar.  There are FOUR involved.  Odium, the Almighty, Cultivation and an unknown one.

Odium wasn't one of the three that created Roshar in the first place; those would be the Almighty, Cultivation, and the unknown.  Odium came after the fact, as it were, and has presumably been really messing around.  For a long time, apparently.

There are four involved? Where's that from? :)

Is it possible to try and assign numbers to the shards? Each world seems to have magic numbers. Mistborn is the most obvious, with Preservation liking the number 16. The number 10 is big in the Stormlight Archive. And after reading Warbreaker again, it seems like the number 5 shows up a lot: the five scholars, the five visions, Returned are of the fifth Heightening, and a few other places.

Would it be crazy to guess that Endowment is the 5th shard, The Almighty of WoK is the 10th, and Preservation was the 16th?

The only problem I see is that Ruin never had a number manifested (but that could just be because Preservation had more contact with humans), and on other worlds with multiple shards it'd be hard to decide what numbers are special, and which shard sponsors them.


I can't think of any numbers from Elantris either. Can anyone else help me out?

Ruin could have been 4th, and 4 4s are 16...

Also, 16 is supposedly significant to the entire Cosmere, not just Scadriel, so perhaps RUIN is 16th, and Preservation used it because of its wider significance. Or perhaps it's all coincidence. ;)

<snip of quoted quotes>

He says he began life as a thought and concept. Is it possible that he wasn't originally human like the others appeared to be, but some creature from Shadesmar?

Or perhaps he's just playing on words and one of his names had a meaning related to thoughts or concepts.

Stormblessed

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #66 on: September 29, 2010, 04:50:47 AM »
I think the fourth shard is based on Brandon's Law of Pairing.

Basically, when we look at mistborn everything can be broken down to pairs. Two metals that are similar but do opposite things (pewter and tin both affect the body, but one is internal, the other external). There are two shards that both are related yet are opposites, like two sides of a coin to use the old cliche.

Anyway, fans have applied this law to the Stormlight Archive. I don't know if I agree with it, but there is definitely space for a 4th shard in this series.
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Munin

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #67 on: September 29, 2010, 01:27:35 PM »
I think the fourth shard is based on Brandon's Law of Pairing.

Basically, when we look at mistborn everything can be broken down to pairs. Two metals that are similar but do opposite things (pewter and tin both affect the body, but one is internal, the other external). There are two shards that both are related yet are opposites, like two sides of a coin to use the old cliche.

Anyway, fans have applied this law to the Stormlight Archive. I don't know if I agree with it, but there is definitely space for a 4th shard in this series.
I don't really think there's any indication that applies to Roshar. On Scadrial, there were all those opposites because you had two shard that were exact opposites. Unless the Almighty's shard is love, that's not really the case on Roshar. Plus, Cultivation would still be mucking things up just by being there.
There's a difference between what's best and what's right. What's best might be different tomorrow or the day after, but right and wrong will stay the same after a thousand years.

happyman

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2010, 02:13:22 PM »
When I claimed that there was another Shard involved, it was based on my reading of the statement

"3 of 16 once ruled, but now the Broken One reigns."

My interpretation of this was that there were three Shards on Roshar, all 3 of which were generally benign (or at least natural for Roshar) and operated within their sphere of influence, doing Shard things.  Then, just like on Sel, Odium (the Broken One) showed up and began wreaking havoc with their system, resulting in the desolations and the general war that is apparently ongoing.

Part of this is that I don't want Odium to be Ruin part deuce.  Ruin was a natural part of Scadriel, even if he and Preservation had to be kept carefully balanced for the world to be amicable.  Ruin's power, held by Sazed, is vital to keep Scadriel running.  Odium is being built up as something else altogether, as somebody who is personally evil, not just driven to it by his very nature.

Another part of that is that it makes the story much deeper, and gives us many more delicious magic systems.

So I don't have a lot of information to back this idea up, but I haven't seen much against it either.  If there are any interviews *ahem* which might shed light on it, I might be willing to read them, though.
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Stormblessed

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2010, 02:26:57 AM »
I would like there to be a fourth shard. The complexity of the series, the amount of magic systems and so on and forth would easily allow for there to be another shard. At least, there is already reference to 4/5 other shards in WoK. I hope we get more hints in later books.
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wolverinehokie

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2010, 03:30:30 PM »
The Ruin/Preservation shard/s that Sazed now holds could be the "17th shard".  Originally there were 16, but now 2 are combined into one.  Hoid could be writing to Sazed.  Although that doesn't explain how Sazed has buddies speaking Dula or why they want to find Hoid.

Evidence:
Quote
Ati was once a kind and generous man, and you saw what became of him. Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met.

Sazed wouldn't know what Ati was like before he held Ruin, but he would have seen the effects.  Also, Hoid (or whoever wrote the letter), describes the other shard holders which seems to suggest the recipient of the letter might not know what they used to be like.  He also describes what happened to Aona and Skai which someone on Scadrial might not know about.  Also, I would guess Sazed would be all about non intervention after seeing what the Lord Ruler tried to do.  It seems like Hoid and Sazed could have known each other for a long time and be old friends.

guy

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2010, 05:19:18 PM »
And Hoid did help out all of Sazeds native people, so it would make sense that they would become friends, but it doesnt explain why sazed is dissapointed in Hoid, or why he has people chasing him.

Munin

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2010, 11:23:04 PM »
There's no way the letter is written to or from Sazed, since the addressee is called "old friend".
There's a difference between what's best and what's right. What's best might be different tomorrow or the day after, but right and wrong will stay the same after a thousand years.

wolverinehokie

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2010, 11:50:27 PM »
There's no way the letter is written to or from Sazed, since the addressee is called "old friend".

Why not?  We know Mistborn happened before WoK, presumably a long time ago.  Old is relative and Hoid could have been friends with Sazed for awhile.

Quote
And Hoid did help out all of Sazeds native people, so it would make sense that they would become friends, but it doesnt explain why sazed is dissapointed in Hoid, or why he has people chasing him.

Agreed.  But we really have no idea why anyone would be disappointed in Hoid.

Stormblessed

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Re: *Spoilers* General Shard List
« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2010, 01:10:07 AM »
In past books, the epigraphs have always been an extension/teaser/easter egg/whatever you want to call it of the book. They refrence and make hints/foreshadow things that will happen in that book, and in the series as a whole. These Hoid letter are the only epigraphs which make obvious refrence to shards outside of the stormlight archive (even Sazed only mentions the other shards in passing, not really dwelling on them). But I still think these letters are an intergral part of the series.

Addressing them to Sazed would be illogical, unless Brandon plans for Sazed to make an appearance in this series. But anyway, this is only my feeling.
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