Author Topic: **Spilers** What's going to happen in AMoL (our theories)  (Read 20490 times)

douglas

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Re: **Spilers** What's going to happen in AMoL (our theories)
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2009, 10:41:15 PM »
and i believe the age of legends is more than one spoke away otherwise Rand is reborn several times a wheel turn and that he only gets screwed into being the creators champion 2 of the times.
Where did you get that idea from?  The series is quite explicitly clear that one spoke of the Wheel = one Age, and the only Ages mentioned specifically are "the Age before the Age of Legends" (mostly minor references), the Age of Legends, the Third Age (which the series is set in), and the Fourth Age (which will begin after Tarmon Gai'don).  The Breaking of the World ended the Age of Legends and began the Third Age.  If there were an Age between the two, there would have been a large number of references to it.  There are, instead, precisely zero such references.

Also, there is no evidence either way on whether Rand is reborn in any ages other than the AoL and the Third Age, or that if he is born in any other ages he does not end up being the Creator's champion in those ages as well.

Batchman

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Re: **Spilers** What's going to happen in AMoL (our theories)
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2009, 04:51:18 AM »
Personally, I don't think we have ever been told for certain whether the Dark One comes close to breaking free on more than one occasion, or whether this is a unique situation.

The Dark One seems to think it is ... from his talk about breaking the wheel and ending the circle of time, it sounds like he kind of managed a coup when he got Lanfear to bring others in and actually drill a hole in his prison ... and even though the Dragon and the 100 companions managed to seal him back in, it isn't as good as the prison the Creator originally had him in.

Now you want an interesting question ... there are 100 companions, and I seem to recall from somewhere that there are 100 bound to the horn. Coincidence, or are they supposed to be the same 100? I got the impression that the 100 companions were males wielding the One Power, and I got the impression that many of those bound to the Wheel do not wield the OP. I think we can be fairly sure Artur Hawkwing doesn't use the OP, and it sure didn't sound like Gaiden Cain or Brigitta did. (You'll have to pardon me on some of these names.)

By the way, how often can the horn get used? It sounds like people only expect it to be used for the last battle, but Mat uses it early. And when Hartwing appears, he doesn't seem at all surprised or anything.

How often do people get spun back out into the pattern again? I don't recall hearing anything that could be taken as any kind of proof positive that people can't be spun out more than once in an age, or anything that says they have to be spun out once in an age.

It'll be interesting to see what else comes out in the next book, anyway.

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Re: **Spilers** What's going to happen in AMoL (our theories)
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2009, 04:59:30 AM »
I believe i heard AoL is the first age from wotmania. Which would make sense b/c it's been what 10k years since the breaking which lasted several generations. Plus there is one major taavern for each age LTT= 1st Artur Hawking = 2nd Rand = 3rd.
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Batchman

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Re: **Spilers** What's going to happen in AMoL (our theories)
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2009, 09:22:40 AM »
I thought it was about 3K years since the breaking, 1K since Hawkwing.

Now admittedly, LTT was taveren at the end of the last age, and Rand is at the end of this age, but Hawkwing was in the middle of this age, and there is nothing to say there weren't more major ones that we haven't heard of.

I think we get three MAJOR taveren this time, because the pattern has such a large issue to try to overcome with the DO.

But who can say for sure ... we've been told much, but there is also much that we have not been told.

douglas

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Re: **Spilers** What's going to happen in AMoL (our theories)
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2009, 03:43:00 PM »
Either you misread something or are misremembering it.  The Age of Legends was the 2nd Age.  The Age before the Age of Legends was the 1st Age, and there are a number of hints that it is the present day modern world.  The events surrounding Artur Hawkwing's rise and his empire's collapse are nowhere near major enough to be an Age transition.

Major ta'veren happen whenever the pattern needs them, which depends entirely on what's happening in the world and how closely it corresponds to what's "supposed" to happen, and sometimes on whether any major world changing events are supposed to be coming up.

The intervals are 1000 years from the Breaking to the Trolloc Wars, 1000 years from the Trolloc Wars to Artur Hawkwing, and 1000 years from Artur Hawkwing to Rand.  Quite a number of ta'veren came along in those 3000 years, some of them major, Hawkwing was just the most major of them before Rand.  In any case, while both the Trolloc Wars and the collapse of Hawkwing's empire were major historical events, neither of them is anywhere near as cataclysmic as a true Age transition.  Compare either of them to the Breaking of the World or Tarmon Gai'don and they just don't measure up.  Changing from one Age to another is Serious Business, and continent-wide but otherwise mostly mundane warfare is not sufficient, and if it were we would have seen several references to those periods being different Ages rather than the actual total of 0.

Oh, and before you say anything about the regularity of the 1000 year intervals, that's due to Ishamael's release cycle, not the Wheel turning.  Ishamael was only partly bound, with about 40 years of freedom every 1000 years.  He was free for some time immediately after the Sealing of the Bore, was free 1000 years later and started the Trolloc Wars, and was free again to become Artur Hawkwing's adviser and turn him against the White Tower, set up the Seanchan, and ensure his empire's collapse.  If Tarmon Gai'don weren't coming, he would be free again about this time anyway to unleash some new nastiness on civilization, and all of this has nothing to do with Age transitions or the length of the Wheel's spokes.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 06:25:01 PM by douglas »

IngtarWhoStoleChristmas

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Re: **Spilers** What's going to happen in AMoL (our theories)
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2009, 04:11:40 PM »
Quote
Now you want an interesting question ... there are 100 companions, and I seem to recall from somewhere that there are 100 bound to the horn. Coincidence, or are they supposed to be the same 100? I got the impression that the 100 companions were males wielding the One Power, and I got the impression that many of those bound to the Wheel do not wield the OP. I think we can be fairly sure Artur Hawkwing doesn't use the OP, and it sure didn't sound like Gaiden Cain or Brigitta did. (You'll have to pardon me on some of these names.)

You're impression is correct, most heroes bound to wheel cannot channel. (FYI there were actually 113 companions, however, Lews Therin and his 113 companions just doesn't have the same ring ;-))

Batchman

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Re: **Spilers** What's going to happen in AMoL (our theories)
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2009, 05:49:35 PM »
Douglas,

I agree with most of what you said. (Of course. Your figures pretty much match up with what I read, so why wouldn't I agree.)

I do have to ask, though ... is the last paragraph just rampant speculation? I never saw anything in my readings to indicate such a thing. Understand, it kind of fits, and might work, but I've never read anything to actually indicate such.

All,

I know we've have a few spoilers in this thread, but shouldn't we get busy and make a few spilers as well, just so the thread title can be accurate?

douglas

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Re: **Spilers** What's going to happen in AMoL (our theories)
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2009, 06:20:14 PM »
That last paragraph about Ishamael is based mostly on some things from the Big Book of Bad Art, also known as The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time.  There are, however, some significant hints of it in the series proper.  For example, in the Rhuidean history sequence, there's mention of an Aes Sedai who claims early in the Breaking that Ishamael is still free.  I think Ishamael in his guise as Ba'alzamon claims credit, maybe in one of the dreams he plagues the ta'veren trio with early on, for the Trolloc Wars and for Artur Hawkwing's hatred of Aes Sedai.  He was also free to a significant degree in TEotW before any of the other Forsaken showed up, and had already channeled the True Power enough to have developed extremely advanced TP addiction symptoms despite not having shown any such symptoms when he talked with Lews Therin in the prologue.  As I understand it, it would have been rather difficult, if not impossible, to channel that much (or at all) of any kind of power while bound by the Seals, so he had to have been free and able to walk the world for a significant period in order to have developed those symptoms.  I think some of the Forsaken comment a time or two about Ishamael being extremely proud about having not been fully trapped by the Seals.

There are probably a few other hints that I just don't remember offhand.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2009, 06:22:37 PM by douglas »

Patriotic Kaz

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Re: **Spilers** What's going to happen in AMoL (our theories)
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2009, 08:07:07 PM »
In TGH they pass by all th ruined civilazations from after the downfall of Hawking's empire...and they give a time line for it being a few millenia past...i'll check when i'm finished cramming for history
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Re: **Spilers** What's going to happen in AMoL (our theories)
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2009, 08:38:16 PM »
It has been 3000 years since the White Tower was founded, so basically 3000 years since society got stable after the breaking. Hawkwing died approximately 1000 years ago, when Ishamael was out on his most recent romp. The only ruins older than 3000 years that I can think of are the ruins of the port town on the spine of the world, which are from the AoL.
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Publius

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Re: **Spilers** What's going to happen in AMoL (our theories)
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2009, 02:52:32 PM »
Oops.  I was more directly responding to this, which I believe TMan was also referring to, and which seems to underestimate just how long it takes the wheel to turn:

Quote
Let's just say that Rand accidentally kills  Min. That would be a good way of showing how the Wheel of Time is cyclical, don't you think, since Lews Therin accidentally killed Illeyna? That way if he lives he chooses between Elayne and Aviendha, and if he dies he lives in the Dream World with Min. This entire scenario confuses me, especially if everyone survives.

I don't think I'm underestimating it. How many times is Rand reborn to battle the Dark One in any given turn of the wheel? At least two times that we're aware of, once as Lews Therin and now with Rand. So its possible that the DO and Rand battle once per age, and not once per cycle. If Rand is prone to  the same mistakes from age to age then Rand accidentally killing Min could still be seen as cyclical.

I've started reading Leigh Butlers reread of the Wheel of Time over at Tor http://bit.ly/VAvH6 and there's hints that he makes the same mistakes from age to age. When Rand first meets Ba'alzamon, Rand "denies" him, at which point Ba'alzamon tells Rand that "You always think it's that easy".  Just one example of how Rand tends to repeat the same mistakes.

The difference this time around seems to be that Rand has LTT and his memories in his head. That may happen every time he's reborn or perhaps only once per cycle of the wheel. If once per cycle Rand gets old memories back then that would allow him to change the mistakes that he always makes and finally defeat the DO, which would allow a new age to start, one that mimics ours.
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happyman

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Re: **Spilers** What's going to happen in AMoL (our theories)
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2009, 03:12:18 PM »
Oops.  I was more directly responding to this, which I believe TMan was also referring to, and which seems to underestimate just how long it takes the wheel to turn:

Quote
Let's just say that Rand accidentally kills  Min. That would be a good way of showing how the Wheel of Time is cyclical, don't you think, since Lews Therin accidentally killed Illeyna? That way if he lives he chooses between Elayne and Aviendha, and if he dies he lives in the Dream World with Min. This entire scenario confuses me, especially if everyone survives.

I don't think I'm underestimating it. How many times is Rand reborn to battle the Dark One in any given turn of the wheel? At least two times that we're aware of, once as Lews Therin and now with Rand. So its possible that the DO and Rand battle once per age, and not once per cycle. If Rand is prone to  the same mistakes from age to age then Rand accidentally killing Min could still be seen as cyclical.

I've started reading Leigh Butlers reread of the Wheel of Time over at Tor http://bit.ly/VAvH6 and there's hints that he makes the same mistakes from age to age. When Rand first meets Ba'alzamon, Rand "denies" him, at which point Ba'alzamon tells Rand that "You always think it's that easy".  Just one example of how Rand tends to repeat the same mistakes.

The difference this time around seems to be that Rand has LTT and his memories in his head. That may happen every time he's reborn or perhaps only once per cycle of the wheel. If once per cycle Rand gets old memories back then that would allow him to change the mistakes that he always makes and finally defeat the DO, which would allow a new age to start, one that mimics ours.


The evidence points to Rand only being born twice in this special role of Dragon: once in the Age of Legends, and once in the Third Age.  It is strongly implied in book 1 that the Age of Myths is our age, and that it ended in nuclear conflagration between the US and Russia (Mosk and Merc battling with lances of fire) and that the DO was completely uninvolved (otherwise the Age of Legends would have known more about him).  The evidence is sparse but real and there is absolutely no evidence to the contrary save people wanting more meaningful repetitions to occur within the ages, which impresses me not at all.
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Adrienne

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Re: **Spilers** What's going to happen in AMoL (our theories)
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2009, 04:52:17 PM »
I'm so trying to stay away from these discussions so that I can read the book without expectations.  I can't help myself!


1.  Aviendha will have to get with Rand so that she gets pregnant and we can find out what is so special about her babies.  This will put Min out of the picture for awhile.

2.  Elayne will have her babies.

3.  Gawyn will make it home.

4.  I'm interested in where Perrin will go next - I hope to see Elayne and her mother reunited in this next book.  Of course Morgase will get married again to Tallenvor.

5.  Matt might have to speak with Birgette before going into the towers - he will need the help of a dream walker if I remember correctly of the placement of the towers.  I believe the doors can only be used once and he has used both once. 

6.  I hope that the song is found - I know Elayne has some ter'angreal that will make songs and one that can only be opened by a song.  I would imagine it plays a role in the last battle.  I hope that the Tinkerers find closure in this way.

7.  I think Loial is going to do great at the meeting of the stump.  However, this might take awhile and he might be out of the picture.  I think his wife will let him finish his book and take part in Rand's plans.

8.  I hope that the death Rand experiences is the loss of Lews Therin. 

9.  Egwene will have the tower but I'm sure it will be later that the seachan end up attacking the tower.  It may be that the attack pushes Egwene into her rightful place and Eladia dies in the attack.

Patriotic Kaz

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Re: **Spilers** What's going to happen in AMoL (our theories)
« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2009, 09:49:43 PM »
I thinkthat terangreal was what was used with Ogier song to "grow" the ways...which hopefully it can cure of it's taint and the black wind
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JCHancey

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Re: **Spilers** What's going to happen in AMoL (our theories)
« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2009, 10:19:21 PM »
@ Adrienne
He won't need the help of a dreamwalker getting into the towers, the only help he'll need is knowing how to make the symbol with a bronze dagger to get inside. The Tower of Ghenjei is in this world; if you recall in TEotW Rand and Mat both see the Tower, and later Perrin, while in TAR, lands next to it and Birgette tells him basically how to open it.
As for the song... I think that it was lost. It was sung by the Aiel (as per visions in Rhuidien), Ogier, and the Nym.
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