Angst & Frustrations Galore

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

Quickly and importantly - we are getting our information from a third party source.  OutKast was not there for the conversations, so he was getting his information from a biased source.  Then he himself is biased.  So we got our information down the line of biased sources from a source that didn't even presently attend the conversations we are debating about.  Don't you think the facts could have been, and probably were, slightly skewed in this chain, Archon?  You shouldn't assume that the parents lied to the kids from what we heard.  Heck, even the biased, probably skewed information we got was sketchy at best in context.  We got very little information on the subject, and what we did get is probably far from the truth.

This being said, no, it's not fair that OutKast and his girlfriend can't see eachother.  The parents obviously have something important to do.  Such as the harvest season.  I'm going to take a wild leap here and assume the harvest season effects their buisness by adding customers.  Which means the parents are just trying to scratch a living, which in turn SUPPORTS the kid and will end up paying for the trip when and if it happens.

The kid WASN'T being  mature with her parents, and she was being indignant and rude to them.  And, knowing what we do about the average teenager, she probably isn't as mature as she thinks she is, nor is she mature enough to talk up to her parents about it.  She has the right to be frustrated, she doesn't have the right to talk back to her parents like that.  IT wasn't intelligent, it wasn't mature and, frankly, the parents probably made the right choice here.  If she isn't mature enough to hold a civil conversation with her parents about seeing her boyfriend, she probably isn't mature enough to have a boyfriend in the first place.

And, Archon, families are not like buisnesses.  Nor did the parents make 'a lot of really big mistakes'.  Assuming that this was even an error, which I am not, it was one mistake.  That's it.

The fact that they promised to take Becky out to see OutKast and couldn't does not mean they lied.  It means they might have lied, but probably life got in the way.  It happens.  It's like if you promise to pay a friend back the next day and you get mugged.  Your friend shouldn't call you a liar because you didn't pay them back.  Something came up.  With the biased information we have it isn't safe to assume that they are just being jerks.  

First of all, they are wrong in considering it insignificant.

Maybe, maybe not.  Either way, they probably do.  What you have to realize is this trip is going to cost the parents a minimum of twenty two hours.  If the parents decide to stay in town with the daughter it is even longer.  And, personally, I'd want to stay with my daughter.  That's eleven hours of driving if they stay - twenty two if they don't.  That is a lot of gas money, that is a lot of time and a lot of effort.  Can you blame the parents for not wanting to do that?  Really?  Would you?  No, you wouldn't, especially if you had a buisness to run to support the little girl who is immaturely harassing you in the first place.

Teenagers are USUALLY not the brightest crayons in the box.  So it's not out of place for anyone here to assume the parents are more capable of making decisions than the kids.  Sure, there are exceptions, some people mature more quickly than others - however, if we are going to assume anything, it should be that the girl is not as capable of applying all the factors of the situation as the parents.  And we can base this assumption on the fact that she didn't think about the consequences of her talking up to her parents, which hindered any sucess she may have made.  Obviously, the girl isn't very good at thinking about all the factors of a situation, such as the cost of time, effort, money, and lost time at the store.  All for a little face time with a boy that she probably isn't even thinking about marrying at the time and can talk to on a regular basis.

[Archon]

Again, not Outkast, Xaio.

Do we really think that adults are smarter than teens? Honestly, look at all of the stupid things that adults do every day. I don't think you can consider teens to be inferior in rational thought until adults stop doing stupid things like passing laws against suicide. Adults calling teens stupid is kind of the pot calling the kettle black.

The parents don't seem to have been talking about letting her go, I would bet that she had to bring it up, and they told her no. She persisted and that is how the whole thing came up. And I am willing to bet they did lie at least once, because they knew that harvest was coming up, and they still said that they would take her.

But it is quite absurd that every single opportunity for any experience should be pursued vigorously, encouraged, or even permitted.

This is an opportunity that they allowed when it was convenient. So they obviously didn't think that there was anything wrong with Xaio. Their daughter doesnt need encouragement. All she needs is for them to do something that they said they would, or, if they won't even do that, then let her do it for them. I don't see what their proximity has to do with anything. It isn't like they would be with the pair all the time anyway. If they were there, that is not going to stop Xaio and Beca from making a bad decision, if that is what they were going to do.

The kid WASN'T being  mature with her parents, and she was being indignant and rude to them.

Right back at them.

She has the right to be frustrated, she doesn't have the right to talk back to her parents like that.  IT wasn't intelligent, it wasn't mature and, frankly, the parents probably made the right choice here.

It could have been mature if she was telling the truth. And you don't know that she wasn't.

Teenagers are USUALLY not the brightest crayons in the box.

Wait a minute. People in general are not the brightest crayons in the box. You and I are teens, proving that there are intelligent teens. Therefore, it is wrong to limit stupidity to teenagers like that.

All for a little face time with a boy that she probably isn't even thinking about marrying at the time and can talk to on a regular basis.

Before you say something like that, which seems to make it seem ridiculous that this is important, have a girlfriend.

And, Archon, families are not like buisnesses.  Nor did the parents make 'a lot of really big mistakes'.  Assuming that this was even an error, which I am not, it was one mistake.  That's it.

Families and businesses are close enough to complete the simile. And I said a big mistake, or a lot of little mistakes.

If she isn't mature enough to hold a civil conversation with her parents about seeing her boyfriend, she probably isn't mature enough to have a boyfriend in the first place.

They weren't any more civil than she was, so what does that tell you?

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

uhm... bad example for stupidity. And if you're goign to say adults do stupid things, you'll need to look at what teenagers do. they tend to make stupider decisions. Yes. And that's the only real point of contention remaining. No one here can really blame any sins on either side, since it would be pure speculation.

[Archon]

How is that a bad example? If someone kills themself, you want to go down and arrest them?

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Its a bad example because the laws exist to force the police to get involved to prevent suicide. Not to punish corpses in a perverse mockery of justice as you seem to suspect. Since police are sworn to "prevent crime" and since suicide is a crime, if they know about it they have to stop it. And since many people who attempt suicide can be treated and rehabilitated its not so stupid.

[Skar]

What a perfect example of teens mistakenly thinking adults are stupid through lack of experience.

*Skar sets himself on fire in anticipation

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

/me suffocates skar with the oxygen removing fire extinguishing system.

[Archon]

It is no more ethical to force someone to live than to kill someone. If someone wants to die, it is their life, they should be allowed to do what they want with it. There are some lives that I would rather die than be forced to live. And I don't think that it is the governments responsibility to make the people it governs want to live. So, no, not a bad example. But if you look, there are plenty of ones that you would probably like better.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

that's not a stupidity argument but a morality argument.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

So, no, not a bad example.

Sorry, just saying oh well what I meant was that not letting people kill themselves is stupid doesnt qualify your example to be a good one. Since suicide is usually a cry for help, and since most people who get treatment for the underlying problem are unlikely to try again, saving their lives seems like a good thing. Personally I wish you'd sit down and talk to my friend Kim, who's father blew his brains out and deprived her, her sister and mother of a loving father and husband over something that could have probably been treated. Its not like suicide is a victimless crime, there are consequences outside of the the person who dies.

[Master Xaio with Bad Net]

Ok, I don't have much time, but in 24 hours I'll reply fully.  A few major points I saw glancing thru the replys.

- Archon, I am Outkast.  Its just that I've changed my name to my wider used 'Xaio'.  Either is fine by me.

- The harvest season is over.  Like, 2 weeks ago.  Now they've gone back to having not much going on at all.

- The reason Beca jumped in as she did had to do with some fairly individual circumstances.  Namely, that she gets bad migraines among a few other things.  She was in the middle of a two day one at that point, and throughout the whole thing was fainting, unable to focus, to hear ppl speak because it hurt etc.  So don't judge that too harshly.

Maybe, maybe not.  Either way, they probably do.  What you have to realize is this trip is going to cost the parents a minimum of twenty two hours.  If the parents decide to stay in town with the daughter it is even longer.  And, personally, I'd want to stay with my daughter.  That's eleven hours of driving if they stay - twenty two if they don't.  That is a lot of gas money, that is a lot of time and a lot of effort.  Can you blame the parents for not wanting to do that?  Really?  Would you?  No, you wouldn't, especially if you had a buisness to run to support the little girl who is immaturely harassing you in the first place.

Um... they've gotta come past here anyway.  Soon.  So whats the big deal? Its not putting them out any.

This may offend some ppl, but I'm getting a strong sense of the whole 'Parent is always right' mythos amongst these arguements.  Could I just suggest we put that aside, and accept the fact that these people are humans.  Her mother isn't very bright, she's very wishy-washy and airy-headed, and volatile.  Thats not exactly a good description of someone who is doing the best thing :S

Anyway, I appreciate the replies and as soon as I get time, I'll reply to all of it.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I don't think anyone has said the parent is always right, but I can see how only skimming would give that impression.
I'm saying parents are more often right than not, when it comes to fighting with teens.

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

Okay, Archon - look at the stupid things teenagers do.  You're right - people are stupid.  It is a very sad, very true fact.  However, teenagers tend to be more stupid (special bold print for SE ) than adults, because of lack of experience, being overly emotional and uneducated, among other things.  I never said teenagers can't be smart, I said they usually weren't as intelligent as adults.  Want an example?  Teen suicide rate.  Much higher than adult suicide rate simply because teens are over emotional, and they think everything is more important than it really is.  Again, I am generalizing, but you get the idea.  The fact of the matter is that the average teen have less education, less experience, more emotional problems, less stability, less foresight and less common sense (or at least they use it less often), among other things, than the average adult.

Most of your argument is on the basis that the information we recieved was a correct portrayal of the parents.  How likely is that?  We have very little information, and what we do have is from a third party who is biased that got its information from a biased party.  This makes it highly unlikely that the parents are actually being as immature and unfair as they are made out to be.  Plus both parties relaying this information to us are very close to the situation, which makes the information even less reliable.  So, you have no real basis for calling the parents immature.

However, it works just the opposite when talking about the kids.  Because the information is biased the kids probably look a little more rightous than they really are to a nuetral party - it happens.  It's nobody's fault, I'm not accusing anyone of trying to alter the information, but since they are biased it's going to happen.  This means that how immature the girl looks to us isn't as immature as she actually was - she was probably worse.  I didn't base my argument on this since she looks immature in the situation without the magnification - but you get the idea.  In reality you have right to say the following after I said the girl was being immature and indignant.

Right back at them.

And yeah, I can see where you get the impression that we are saying that the parent is always right if you just skimmed the thread, Outkast.  Trust me, I'm not, and I don't think anybody else was, either.

Archon - it's their first time running a general store.  Maybe they didn't comprehend how much buisness would pick up.  Just, you have to give people the benefit of the doubt in these situations.  Or you should, I guess I should say.  Most of your arguments - in fact, all of your arguments seem to be based around you giving the kids as much credit as possible through assumption and the parents the least amount through assumption.  If you are going to assume, assume the same for both.  Because right now you seem horribly, horribly biased.

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

Another note - when do they have to come by, OutKast?  I bet if you were civil enough about it you could convince them to bring her.  Try to make a deal, and try to get your parents to talk to her parents about bringing her.  Of course, it would have been easier to do before little B lost her head - migraines or not, that will make your progress really, really slow from here on out.  I feel for you, man

And finally

Before you say something like that, which seems to make it seem ridiculous that this is important, have a girlfriend.

It would be pretty hypocritical of me to have a girlfriend while no intending to get married while I sit here saying what I say.  Ever wonder why I make no attempts whatsoever to get in a relationship?  It's because I'm following my own philosophy - I'm not intending to get married in the next two or three years.  So I don't really need to get in a relationship.

And I never said it seems ridiculous that this is important (to my recollection).  I said it is ridiculous that this semi-serious relationship (at best) should come before the family finances and hours, even days, of the parents' time.  If she isn't thinking about marrying OutKast in the next few years, she really has no right to put her parents out of their way and their jobs to see a boyfriend she can talk to anyway.  Now, if the parents are coming by anyway, which apparently they are, it's a slightly different story... but we didn't know that when you were making your argument and I was making mine.

[Archon]

First of all, the matter that I consider most pressing, Jeffe, I never said that it wasn't a tragedy that people kill themselves. I never said that there weren't victims. I did say that the government has no right to intervene into peoples lives to keep them alive against their will. I am sorry if you have been affected by a suicide, but I don't think that even if I talked to this woman that it would change my mind. I still think that it is a stupid matter for the government to interfere.

Skar, are you being serious?

Gorgon, it is very important to their daughter. They had several months in which they could have taken what would have been perhaps a weekend trip. And they told her that they would take her. They didn't keep their word. I would like to think that I keep my word, and I expect other people to keep theirs. They messed up once, that is forgivable, mistakes, unseen circumstances. But they have been given four months so far, and it looks like it will be five before anything happens. That is (roughly) sixteen weekends they have had already. I find it hard to extend the benefit of the doubt far enough to say that they couldn't fit a small trip in that length of time. And Gorgon, I don't expect you to have a girlfriend. I think it is perfectly cool that you choose not to. But with that, you have to accept that you can't really talk about it like you know what it feels like. Man, you have no idea until you try it.