Reen's obsidian

[SarahG]

Where is metal involved in the Mist Spirit tearing off the corners of pages? Or in Ruin altering the text of written pages?

Ooh, ooh, an Ookla-clue!  Now we know that Ruin altered the text, but the Mist Spirit tore the pages!  I wasn't sure till now who did what in that situation.

[VegasDev]

Ooh, ooh, an Ookla-clue!  Now we know that Ruin altered the text, but the Mist Spirit tore the pages!  I wasn't sure till now who did what in that situation.

Somewhere, Ookla sits in front of his computer screen with fingertips touching in an arch, an evil grin on his face and a mild chuckle escaping his lips. 'Excellllllent.....take the bait my pretties.'

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Move along... Nothing to see here...

[neiana]

No, we generally do not.  The magic in this world follows specific rules.  We don't know all of them, but every last one that we have seen, every last one that has ever been found, *including the examples listed above* all involve metals, and only metals.  Not only that, but trace metals play only the smallest part in the system and seem very unlikely to get involved unless crazy-strong allomancers get involved.  Even if they do, it will still be the metal that is special.

In addition, none of these powers leave "footprints" in the usual sense of the word.  Once pushing or pulling (physical or emotional) is done, the item (person) moves on its new trajectory following the "non-magical" laws of physics; it has been changed, but the change does not continue; there is no allomantic radiation given off, or any continuing magical change.  I've heard rumors that internal pushing and pulling might leave permanent scars, but that's probably more like bending metal with a pull and leaving it be; there is no trace of pulling left over after, just the bent metal (or person).

What you don't seem to understand is that we don't expect EUOL to change the rules midstream.  We expect the final picture to make sense in terms consistent with what we already know.  You could keep saying things along the lines of "Prove that obsidian can't have magic powers!" and we won't have a final answer for you until we actually read the last book.  That doesn't mean that our answers aren't sufficient; we logically cannot prove a negative.  We just have to give reasons to think the negative is unfruitful and why we choose to ignore it.  Your protests to the contrary aren't swaying anybody; they're just ticking us off, largely because they aren't really adding anything to the debate.

okay happyman, when did you read about the powers TLR acquired presumably from WoA?  It's not in the two books, but you certainly know exactly how it happened and what traces of magic don't exist.  Also, just because something isn't making itself readily apparent doesn't mean it isn't so - Mr. Sanderson likely has a better imagination than you & I so get off your dilly and use your brain.  He hasn't forced everything into a petite little present for you just yet, so wait and see what other surprises he might have before mucking with a valid metal comment.

If the Ashmounts have anything at all to do with anything then I can almost assure you he was quite aware of what obsidian was made of.

[Reaves]

Move along... Nothing to see here...

these aren't the droids you're looking for... 

[happyman]

No, we generally do not.  The magic in this world follows specific rules.  We don't know all of them, but every last one that we have seen, every last one that has ever been found, *including the examples listed above* all involve metals, and only metals.  Not only that, but trace metals play only the smallest part in the system and seem very unlikely to get involved unless crazy-strong allomancers get involved.  Even if they do, it will still be the metal that is special.

In addition, none of these powers leave "footprints" in the usual sense of the word.  Once pushing or pulling (physical or emotional) is done, the item (person) moves on its new trajectory following the "non-magical" laws of physics; it has been changed, but the change does not continue; there is no allomantic radiation given off, or any continuing magical change.  I've heard rumors that internal pushing and pulling might leave permanent scars, but that's probably more like bending metal with a pull and leaving it be; there is no trace of pulling left over after, just the bent metal (or person).

What you don't seem to understand is that we don't expect EUOL to change the rules midstream.  We expect the final picture to make sense in terms consistent with what we already know.  You could keep saying things along the lines of "Prove that obsidian can't have magic powers!" and we won't have a final answer for you until we actually read the last book.  That doesn't mean that our answers aren't sufficient; we logically cannot prove a negative.  We just have to give reasons to think the negative is unfruitful and why we choose to ignore it.  Your protests to the contrary aren't swaying anybody; they're just ticking us off, largely because they aren't really adding anything to the debate.

okay happyman, when did you read about the powers TLR acquired presumably from WoA?  It's not in the two books, but you certainly know exactly how it happened and what traces of magic don't exist.  Also, just because something isn't making itself readily apparent doesn't mean it isn't so - Mr. Sanderson likely has a better imagination than you & I so get off your dilly and use your brain.  He hasn't forced everything into a petite little present for you just yet, so wait and see what other surprises he might have before mucking with a valid metal comment.

If the Ashmounts have anything at all to do with anything then I can almost assure you he was quite aware of what obsidian was made of.

I can't prove negatives.  I can only say "I think that's likely" and "I don't think that's likely".  And I'm sorry I got you riled up; perhaps I was a bit harsher than intended.

However, Ookla has made a good point.  There are more powers in the world than we are aware of, and presumably the obsidian could be involved in those somehow.  In fact, the power in the well apparently didn't focus on metal either, so I retract some of the more extreme comments I made.

Unfortunately, when we allow these kinds of speculations in, the field is wide open.  The obsidian could be...anything.  It could be the place preservation is hiding.  It could be the focus for killing the inquisitors.  It could magically open the door to the ashmounts so we can get to the lake where the last treasure is kept.  That's the problem; when we go beyond what has been seen, the world is wide open.  We can use imagination all we want, and as creatively as we want, but nobody will be able to argue for any one of the choices in any coherent way.  Certainly not with the extremely limited screen time the obsidian has had.

As things stand, "nothing" is still the most coherent thing the obsidian does.

[Czanos]

Just thought I'd point out that in the Ruin and Preservation thread we talked quite a bit about who did the tearing and who changed the writings, and the theory that Ookla just (semi-)confirmed just supported what we had already. (Though I admit I still thought it was Ruin who did the original page-tearing.) I think that this is one of the problems of all of our theorizing, is that we have so much information and no way to easily categorize it if we need to check the current theories on any one topic.

[Miyabi]

The Mist Spirit can use Allomancy from what we see, but it is also a Spirit potentially able to do other things physically without having to use magic.  As far as editing the texts, a VERY acute ability to push/pull and affects the iron used in the ink.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

But the changes were first made to Sazed's charcoal rubbing, which was basically just carbon, right?

[Miyabi]

Were they charcoal rubbings?  I remember them being lead. . . but then again this is just from random memory, nothing too defined there.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Really? I definitely don't remember that. Will have to look it up.

[happyman]

Just thought I'd point out that in the Ruin and Preservation thread we talked quite a bit about who did the tearing and who changed the writings, and the theory that Ookla just (semi-)confirmed just supported what we had already. (Though I admit I still thought it was Ruin who did the original page-tearing.) I think that this is one of the problems of all of our theorizing, is that we have so much information and no way to easily categorize it if we need to check the current theories on any one topic.

Actually, I always thought it was the mist spirit that cut the pages.  I thought it was trying to tell Sazed that something was wrong with the manuscript. (After all, it cut the most false part out, the part that absolutely had to be corrected.  And Sazed's response was to become more suspicious of the document.) The mist spirit seems to be awfully limited in what it can do, and this seemed to be as good a way as any that was available to it.

[Chaos]

The key, I believe, is that while Allomancy's power is based upon metals, its EFFECTS don't have to be about metal. Sure, pushing and pulling do, but pewter enhances your body, and I highly doubt that it does this by affecting metals. It's even less likely in one like tin, and emotional Allomancy? That's about the furthest possible thing from a metal as possible, the abstract thing called emotions.

All of Feruchemy is storing decidedly non-metal attributes.

Hemalurgy is metallic because we place gigantic spikes inside of someone, not necessarily that it directly affects metals.

Now, I have no idea how Ruin and Preservation exert their will (methinks it involves the mists and how it relates to the magic systems, somehow) and whether its Allomancy or not. It's far beyond Allomancy, so I believe this is above the three magic systems in some manner, or a distinct application that has not been envisioned yet (again, the mists are very mysterious in this matter. We don't know how they operate, much in the same way as we don't know how R&P work. We know that Ruin and Preservation are intertwined with the magics somehow, and we know the mists are as well. The thing we don't know is why.)

As things stand, "nothing" is still the most coherent thing the obsidian does.

Quite right.

On the other hand...

It could magically open the door to the ashmounts so we can get to the lake where the last treasure is kept.

I am not opposed to primary villains being thrown into lava, lava in the scene of a battle, or Vin falling into the lava and the real Hero of Ages, Emperor Palpatine, comes into play and saves Vin by turning her into Darth Vader.

Anything with lava, really.

[darxbane]

The rubbing was made with charcoal.  However, I doubt it was pure charcoal.  I am sure there was some trace metal in it, as well as in the parchment used in the rubbing.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Maybe there was lava in it.