Author Topic: torrent!  (Read 4410 times)

Bookstore Guy

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2008, 06:48:11 PM »
there are several issues being muddled here. 

The mention of musicians, artists, authors, etc. releasing their own material for download is fundamentally different from other torrent downloads.  When, say, and author releases his/her stuff online, it is with consent.  They are making it available for people to read to help influence their future sales.  They rarely release EVERYTHING they have ever done.  The Super Bowl reminded me of this last night when, before the game (and every game for that matter), they say that any rebroadcast WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF THE NFL is illegal.  There is no doubt that authors like Brandon, musicians like Smashing Pumpkins, Fallout Boy, and that rapper dude have benefited by having their stuff downloaded.   However, that stuff is being downloaded with the artist's consent and approval.

That is a COMPLETELY different issue from other torrents that are being done without the consent of the original artist.  It's not just the companies that suffer, the artists do as well.  In the book industry for example, it's not like authors get a ton of money per book that is sold.  not to mention authors get double taxed.  Can you see why an author would get a little upset for each book of theirs that is downloaded rather than purchased.  For anime, where do you think a majority of their profit comes from?  Manga sell a ton, sure - and the margins are way lower.  Merchandise, i imagine, is a much smaller part of business.  DVDs are probably a huge part.  Overall sales dont mean shizz if the biggest contributor to your bottom line is f'ed by things such as downloads.  Business 101.  For an Anime company to have its DVD profit cut in half is like Microsoft having its profit from software/hardware cut in half.  It would bankrupt them.

So, because they are young and cant afford it means its ok to download?  I old and cant afford everything I like, so according to your logic I should legally download anything I want for free too.  In fact, all those young kids downloading 17000 mp3s should be able to go into BestBuy and take any CD for free since they cant afford it.  You know, lets make all bookstores libraries with free copies to "borrow" for everyone.  Im sure all the artists would work for free.  Downloading without the artists consent = stealing.  Period.  claims to the contrary are ridiculous.

The comment about the show House vs Tenchi Muyo doesnt seem to be taking into account the fact that it is way more expensive for the anime to be released than House.  The translation costs alone make that price go way up, and also the quantity of released.  They sell the anime at a higher price to account for smaller release numbers and higher costs.  That is an apples vs oranges comparison and really isnt valid.
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Bryant

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2008, 11:26:14 PM »
there are several issues being muddled here. 

The mention of musicians, artists, authors, etc. releasing their own material for download is fundamentally different from other torrent downloads.  When, say, and author releases his/her stuff online, it is with consent.  They are making it available for people to read to help influence their future sales.  They rarely release EVERYTHING they have ever done.  The Super Bowl reminded me of this last night when, before the game (and every game for that matter), they say that any rebroadcast WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF THE NFL is illegal.  There is no doubt that authors like Brandon, musicians like Smashing Pumpkins, Fallout Boy, and that rapper dude have benefited by having their stuff downloaded.   However, that stuff is being downloaded with the artist's consent and approval.
The underlying concept is the same, though. The freely released material was sold in stores as well. In the case of the rapper, that album - the one he released free, online - has the highest sales out of any of his. I don't think it's his best work (Though, I'm not much of a rap fan, so my judgment on that might be off), yet it has the most sales, arguably because it has the most exposure. I don't see why the underlying fact - that the album is available for free - would effect sales differently depending on if the artist put it out there, or if it had just been widespread over p2p networks. People who were fans who buy music would have bought it regardless, and people who are only out for free things wouldn't have bought it either. This means that there has to be a faction out there that learned of him because it was available for free, and then bought it later.

Let's look at radio broadcasting. There is no subscription to listen to radio, and it is legal (Or was, before the DMCA. I'm not so sure how things stand now. I believe it still is, as things like DVRs for TV are legal) for me to record things from the radio. I received this music for free, at no cost.

The point of radio is publicity. The point of music videos is publicity. The point of releasing things for free on the internet is publicity. Illegal filesharing, at the very least, does give them some publicity.

Overall music sales are up. CD sales are down, but with iTunes and other paid download services, music sales are increasing.  Quite simply, the facts are saying that illegal downloading is not hurting the music industry anywhere near as much as the RIAA would have you believe. A lot of this, I'm sure, is because iTunes and other downloading services such as Napster's paid models allow people to get their music more cheaply than before, and select what songs they do want, and what songs they don't. I am not in any way arguing that filesharing is behind increased overall music sales. I just believe that it is likely contributing to them.

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That is a COMPLETELY different issue from other torrents that are being done without the consent of the original artist.  It's not just the companies that suffer, the artists do as well.  In the book industry for example, it's not like authors get a ton of money per book that is sold.  not to mention authors get double taxed.  Can you see why an author would get a little upset for each book of theirs that is downloaded rather than purchased.  For anime, where do you think a majority of their profit comes from?  Manga sell a ton, sure - and the margins are way lower.  Merchandise, i imagine, is a much smaller part of business.  DVDs are probably a huge part.  Overall sales dont mean shizz if the biggest contributor to your bottom line is f'ed by things such as downloads.  Business 101.  For an Anime company to have its DVD profit cut in half is like Microsoft having its profit from software/hardware cut in half.  It would bankrupt them.
You're missing my point. With the music industry, CD sales are down. Less people are going to the store and buying CDs than they used to. But when you factor in sales over iTunes, etc, there is more music being sold today total, combining CD sales and online sales, than there was in CD sales before the advent of illegal downloading. Concert sales are up as well - which is the big thing for the artists. Concerts are where they have the opportunity to actually make significant portions of money for themselves. The industry takes a huge portion out of actual sales for themselves.

Now, obviously, anime doesn't have concerts. But it does have online sales. How well are they doing?  DVD sales are down, but they're only part of the story. Are online sales up? I'm not saying they are - but I refuse to condemn any party, on either side, until the entire truth is known.


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So, because they are young and cant afford it means its ok to download?  I old and cant afford everything I like, so according to your logic I should legally download anything I want for free too.  In fact, all those young kids downloading 17000 mp3s should be able to go into BestBuy and take any CD for free since they cant afford it.  You know, lets make all bookstores libraries with free copies to "borrow" for everyone.  Im sure all the artists would work for free.  Downloading without the artists consent = stealing.  Period.  claims to the contrary are ridiculous.
Again, you're missing the point. You cannot lose a sale you never had.

Let's take an expensive piece of software like 3DS Max and use it as an example. It's retail price is 3500 dollars. I would never, ever, for any reason, buy 3DS Max. I am not a 3D Modeler. I do not do Animation for a living. There is absolutely no reason for me to have it. Yet, I could, on a whim, download it.

But I never would have bought it. Autodesk is not out $3500 they would have otherwise received if I didn't download it.

Does that make it right? No. In this example, I have my hands on software that I did not pay for, and should not have. But ultimately, it does not hurt the company.


Quote
The comment about the show House vs Tenchi Muyo doesnt seem to be taking into account the fact that it is way more expensive for the anime to be released than House.  The translation costs alone make that price go way up, and also the quantity of released.  They sell the anime at a higher price to account for smaller release numbers and higher costs.  That is an apples vs oranges comparison and really isnt valid.
The reasons are irrelevant. My point had nothing to do about Anime being unfairly priced - it had to do with economics. Most people want entertainment. Many enjoy anime. But if they also enjoy regular TV, they get far less bang for their buck buying an anime series. The US economy has been steadily declining, unemployment is up, and the value of the dollar is falling. People are defaulting on loans, and houses are being foreclosed on. Leisure related industries losing sales is hardly surprising, and the more expensive things are the first to go.

If the amount of money I feel safe in spending on entertainment each month is only $200, and I'm only out to spend half of that DVDs, am I going to buy two different seasons of a TV series, where I get nearly 2000 minutes of entertainment, or three sets of anime DVDs, where I get barely half that? This has absolutely nothing to do with why either season is priced as it is, but entirely with me trying to stretch my budget as far as I can.

Most anime fans are (And I'm generalizing here, and I could be off - though I don't think I am) younger. The majority are of the high school/college age, and that demographic does not have a whole lot of income. For many of them, most of the income they have goes towards tuition and cost of living. Without much spending power, the budgeting problem is even greater.

The reason for the cost disparity is apples and oranges. But I'm not looking at the reason for the cost disparity. I'm looking at the basic fact that there is one.


Again, I am not saying file sharing is right. I am not defending it. I am not supporting it. It is getting something that you did not earn, and is quite obviously morally wrong, if nothing else. I am, however, saying that it is not a black and white issue. There are hundreds of factors at work, and all I am trying to do is point out that there is more to the issue, and explaining other factors that are quite likely having an impact. That is all I am doing.

Preaching that file sharing is the root of all problems means that the other problems get ignored and go unresolved. When they go unresolved, the entertainment industries hurt. And I don't want them to go out of business any more than you do - they are where I find my entertainment as well.

rtm1981

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2008, 03:45:47 AM »
I would like to state "for the record" that I'm against filesharing. I can however admit that I'm not certain that filesharing can in some few cases help in some degree or another. One thing I read on a website a month or so ago was fairly interesting. I actually had to laugh and shake my head incredulously (is that right? I'm Norwegian) when I read through the letter. Here it is:
------------------
I received a very pleasant mail today. My inbox is usually full of stupid cease & desist messages from various antipiracy organizations, but it’s mails like this one which make you happy. It’s good to see that some people realize that internet piracy isn’t just evil…
(I won't mention which site this is from, because I fear the wrath of the moderators :)   -rtm1981)

    To Whom It May Concern:

    My name is Eric D. Wilkinson and I am the producer of a small independent film called “Jerome Bixby’s The Man From Earth” (our review)[supposed to be a link. -rtm1981].

    I am sending you this email after realizing that our website has had nearly 23,000 hits in the last 12 days, much of it coming from your website. In addition, our trailer, both on the www.manfromearth.com site and other sites like YouTube, MySpace and AOL has been watched nearly 20,000 times AND what’s most impressive is our ranking on IMDb went from being the 11,235th most popular movie, to the 5th most popular movie in 2 weeks (we are also the #1 independent film on IMDb & the #1 science fiction film on IMDb). How did this all happen? Two words: Torrent / File Sharing sites (well, four words and a slash).

    More specifically, XXXXXX.net [Apologies. -rtm1981]. Our independent movie had next to no advertising budget and very little going for it until somebody ripped one of the DVD screeners and put the movie online for all to download. After that happened, people were watching it and started posting mostly all positive reviews on IMDb, Amazon and other places. Most of the feedback from everyone who has downloaded “The Man From Earth” has been overwhelmingly positive. People like our movie and are talking about it, all thanks to piracy on the net!

    Am I upset… surprisingly no. Thanks to everyone who has downloaded this torrrent and watched the film, our awareness level is through the roof. For that I say, “THANK YOU”!

    What you guys have done here is nothing short of amazing. In the future, I will not complain about file sharing. YOU HAVE HELPED PUT THIS LITTLE MOVIE ON THE MAP!!!! When I make my next picture, I just may upload the movie on the net myself!


This guy really deserves support from the file sharing community! You can support producers of The Man From Earth by buying the retail DVD, which should be available in the US stores from tomorrow.
 -Admin of XXXXXX.net


I found the letter quite entertaining. The producer of a movie actually wrote a filesharing site (a HUGE one btw) and thanked the filesharing community :) Apparantly lots of people shared my humourous reaction, because this was definately the biggest source of debate on a geekforum I frequent...

Phaz

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2008, 03:30:43 AM »
It looks like for now, you can download the Mistborn eBook free from Tor.

Link to /. article

EUOL

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Re: torrent!
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2008, 05:11:37 AM »
Yup.  I'll be blogging this on Monday.
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