Locking Forklift before there was a reason too

[MsFish]

Maybe that should be Gemm's word next week.  Feud.  The medieval meaning.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

I've responded in the whateveritwascalled webcomic thread.

But really, the only thing that annoyed me was you saying something like "this webcomic doesn't pass the ookla test" or whatever it was you said, when I had never given any opinions on what I would or would not find offensive in comics media. To me it didn't seem like you seriously meant that you found the comic offensive, but that you thought I would find it offensive and that this meant there was something wrong with me. Now, this could certainly be an incorrect impression, but the way your reaction to my comments in one thread somehow spilled over into a completely unrelated thread in a different forum seemed like a trolling tactic rather than a natural outgrowth of the discussion at hand.

However, it wasn't something that I felt was worth saying anything more about at the time than the one comment I made in that thread, after which I've simply been too busy to check the message board much at all, if I can even remember when it was the message was made.

My suggestion is that if you found it personally offensive you could have said "that didn't pass the mad dr. strangeelf test" or whatever term you would like to use instead of referring to me when you were only vaguely guessing at how I would react.

That was the thing that annoyed me. But as I said in the previous forklift thread, when no one seemed to think the same way I did, I found it somewhat distressing (unless I used some other term). HoM being at least somewhat in line with my opinion eased that mild distress. But it was not an annoyance.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Sorry if I assumed that you would find it offensive...I normally just skip threads I find offensive although sometimes I feel that the work has enough artistic merit to continue. I think your wrong about how I feel and felt about the comic. I did find it a little offensive. I think it has to do with the fact that whether you find Ballad human or not human he feels pain, and he is subjected to a fairly worthless and useless test that I found distasteful because you can see it involves a lot of pain. At least thats what I get out of looking at his, or its face while it contorts in horror or agony. Seeing as you thought the violence in the forklift video distasteful, I thought someone causing pain to another person would be off the charts for you. But apparently comics are an acceptable medium for you. And thats ok I guess although I think Im a little dissapointed by your reaction. I actually thought I was warning you that there was violence in it that you would find spiritually damaging to use a term of yours. There wasnt any attempt to mock you there or suggest that there was anything wrong with you. Basically I was responding more to you complaining that you werent warned about the violence in the forklift video and how it made you feel. Anyhow now that we understand each other I guess we can drop it if you want, or we can continue and discuss why certain mediums have certain effects on people.... your choice.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Maybe that should be Gemm's word next week.  Feud.  The medieval meaning.

There is a medieval meaning already, actually. Where do you think the term Feudalism came from?

I think, to handle things in the future, we should just do what we normally do: say that it has potentially offensive material for violence/sex/language/whatever. Don't name names or people feel singled out. That's my take.

I thought I had said something in the Dead Mouse thread. But I realize now that "creepy and strange" doesn't warn people off who may be bothered. I guess mea culpa on that one. I should have been more explicit that it might bother people.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

I still feel like I am being baited, since using your arguments here, you would find a movie offensive where human beings are yelling and screaming in pain and getting limbs and heads chopped off, yet you clearly didn't.

But I'll go ahead and make my statement that would naturally follow from my previous comments. What bothers me about people's reactions to the forklift video is that they indicate they have been spiritually desensitized to this sort of violence. I believe anyone who has not been desensitized enough spiritually will find the forklift video distateful and repugnant and not funny. [EDIT: This really is meant as a commentary more on the state of our current society than on any particular individual or group of individuals.]

Using that same argument against myself, does my reaction to the ballad strip mean I'm spiritually desensitized to that type of violence in comics? Probably. However I must say that if it was a real human being and he suffered the usual consequence of having the top of his skull cut off--i.e. he died a horrible painful death, I would certainly find it offensive. Though not as much as I find the forklift video offensive, due at least to one extent to the fact that it's not in living color with motion and sound.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I don't think your desensitization argument holds.

The foundation of the argument that Ballad is disconnected from reality by several steps. The violence doesn't do any real damage.

But the same is true of the forklift video. No one has a knife plunge inches into their skull and then the only reaction is to snap it off and shuffle off to lunch. No one has a sheet of metal cut them in half and then just sit there on the ground without blood flowing away and no expression of pain or other problems. The violence in that video was incredibly unrealistic and had roughly the same disconnect from reality as the comic strip did. The comic strip, incidentally, had a much mroe human touch to the pain he was going through and with the exception of the hands in the video, had more blood.

Thus the only difference was the color and animation. It feels hard for me to accept that this alone indicates that I have a high degree of spiritual desensitization.  Frankly, while I was not offended by Ballad, I certainly found it much more disturbing.

This is not to say that I think you're wrong to be offended by something. Indeed, if something bothers you, you should stick up for it. However, I find it an error to claim that it is spiritual desensitization that makes me laugh at the forklift video while I cringe at Ballad.

NOTE: in response to Ookla's note, I'll say right now, I am not offended or angry. I'm just stating my view of Ookla's view. I use the first person singular pronoun because, well, I'm in the group he describes. I hope it doesn't sound confrontational.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Like I said in my previous post I was satisfied with your answer and you didnt have to post any further if you wanted.
Thats not baiting in my book.

I think the reason I didnt mind the video is that it was so obviously fake, and it was easy too look at that and say "wow those actors must have had a fun time doing that." Whereas Dead Mouse was fake in the sense that it was a fantasy story, but seemed much more real because of the characters reactions emotions and the strips own pacing.

In addition the disturbing part was the deliberate infliction of pain and suffering in the strip. The movie was a string of accidents, due to carelessness and didnt have the sadism that the comic strip did in my mind.

[House of Mustard]

My two cents (which are worth at least half that):

I think it's possible to be desensitized to things that you view frequently.  Arguing that both Ballad (which I've never seen and can't comment on) and the forklift video are equally "real" doesn't matter.  I would imagine (forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth) is desensitized to that kind of thing because he views it so frequently.  He's more tolerant of the medium, because he's very familiar with it.

Personally, (judging by all of your descriptions) I think that both Ballad and the forklift video are spiritually damaging -- honestly, I don't think that anyone can argue that they're not.  Both devalue human life in the name of entertainment.

But my point is: just because Ookla has a resistance to one, doesn't mean that his opinion of the other should be labeled hypocrisy (even though no one has used that word, it seems to be the thrust of the argument.)

As far as Jeffe's final comment:

didnt have the sadism that the comic strip did

Like I said, I haven't seen the comic, so I can't compare the two, but how is laughing at death and dismemberment not sadistic?  This is my problem with all comedic violence and dark humor.  I cannot see a reason for laughing at squirting blood and decapitation.  THAT is what is sadistic, in my mind.  I just don't understand what makes that funny.

(For the record, I even hate Itchy & Scratchy cartoons -- though I find the social commentary funny, I don't laugh at the cartoons.)

[n8sumsion]

Am I less spiritual than someone else because I find different things funny? Is my sense of humor inherently less spiritual than someone else's, because things that are funny to me are not funny to them?

Obviously, there are offensive things in the world, and I think it is important to take a stand against them. And clearly, this short film is something that, regardless of how I feel about it, some people do find it offensive. But I'm not going to start pointing my finger at them and labeling them deficient in some way, be it spiritually or having no sense of humor. They feel differently than I do, I can deal with that and get on with my life.

This board, as I understand it (and I am new here, so maybe I haven't got it quite figured out), is dedicated to topics that are realistically never going to happen in the real world (zombies, fantasy adventures, outer space adventures, various ways to escape the crushing concerns of every day life, etc.). In just about every role-playing game in which I've participated, the players have engaged in some sort of combat, be it against monsters or human villains. This doesn't mean that I don't value human life in "reality."

I am going to argue that the clip is not spiritually damaging, at least I don't feel it is to me. I don't think it's because I'm desensitized to it. If the film had been about Hans the forklift driver trying to run around and kill people, I wouldn't have bothered watching the whole thing, because I wouldn't have found that entertaining at all. And if I had thought the film was damaging to people, I wouldn't have posted it. I found it highly entertaining and I thought other people would appreciate it also.

Uh, just for the record, I'm not mad about anything, I was just a little distressed that one of the first topics I posted here caused such a stir.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

no worries n8. If you can cause that kind of stir and it's NOT telling you that you're an idiot noob who needs to just shut up and leave, you're doing better than most newcomers. In fact, that topic and the reaction to it pretty much shows that you've been accepted and assimilated.

One of us. One of us.

I just don't have the energy to respond to HoM. I disagree with him, but that's nothing new. Eventually I'll find the time to articulate my response. For now, just consider me a grunting dissenter.

[House of Mustard]

To clarify my position, I'm not trying to call anyone to repentence, or claiming my spiritual superiority to anyone.  I was merely explaining why I feel the way I do.

I really do dislike the training video, and I truly believe it's spiritually damaging, but that doesn't mean I'm saying everyone who likes it is going to hell.

I personally believe that this is a issue of medium for me.  I've always been very affected by music and movies -- they have a huge impact on my mood (and, possibly, spirituality).  (This is why Fell always makes fun of my music tastes -- I listen to much more benign stuff than his metal and hard rock.)  I have no doubt that other people are less effected by that, for whatever reason.  Maybe those people are more sensitive with other mediums than I am, and they might refer to me as the desensitized one in other arenas.

Either way, I'm not trying to accuse anyone of being a sinner -- simply trying to state my case.  I stand by everything I said earlier, but I didn't mean it as a call to repentance.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

If the film had been about Hans the forklift driver trying to run around and kill people, I wouldn't have bothered watching the whole thing, because I wouldn't have found that entertaining at all

Thats how I feel, and if the movie had been like that and I had still liked it I would call that sadistic. But I saw it as incredibly fake, which took the sting out of it. I dont think that means desensitization. For me the forklift video was the equivelent of putting my hand into a bowl full of spaghetti at a halloween party while blindfolded and being told that it was someones guts. My brain thinks fake, and I dont take it for the real thing. Now I have been in situations where violence actually did happen. I dont talk about the bad things I saw on my Cutter when we did alien migrant intradiction, but they were horrible. I will not go into detail about them, but the things men can do to their fellow men are awful.
As for sadistic, Im talking about the artists intent, and not the viewers interpritation although I dont agree with the implication that I am somehow sadistic because I thought the video was funny that too me seems like a moral judgement against me.

ps.  Im not angry at anyone... and am just trying to explain my position

PPs
I also dont think that HOM was intending to call me sadistic. See I think his argument about sadim would have applied if the scene had been entirely serious and people had laughed. As it stands there are multiple levels of unrealistic violence which distance the person from the situation and that are so over the top no one could take them seriously. It was made to be funny and so laughter is appropriate and not sadistic. There are obviously exceptions to that statement, but I dont think that the forklift movie is one of them.

[MsFish]

*raises hand

Can we go back to talking about the offensiveness of Jeffe's elf?

Or freud?  Or feudalism?

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

he is a randy elf, you can see it in his eyes... :-/

and I wish to hear more about this freudian feudalism...

[MsFish]

Perhaps he needs an Elfette.  Then they can go off together and create a freudian feudal society.