Author Topic: Zeitgeist  (Read 4165 times)

Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2003, 08:29:33 PM »
And? Im a little surprised that you want to make this so personal Eric. So what if 42 has more publishing experience than I do, it doesn't make him automatically right. Lots of factors besides age figure into book sales.
Like being a classic. You cant tell me LOTR has poor sales because of its age, well Space 1889 is considered a RPG classic, like Traveller (the reprints of which are selling like hotcakes) and AD&D and it has been selling very well for 2 years.  
Gurps also never seems to go out of style, Gurps world books sell consistantly well years after they have first been printed. I would argue that the game market is diferent than the fiction market.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2003, 08:38:02 PM by ElJeffe »
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The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers

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Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2003, 08:36:41 PM »
I'm not surprised. I'm just saying that, most likely, 42 is looking at sales numbers, not just a perceived interest, which seems to be what you are arguing.
No, there's no excuse for a poorly written game, but I don't think the market is so glutted as you think. If so, then fantasy is, as is sci-fi, horror, anything post-apocalyptic, horror, and well, historical gaming. Yet new products come out and survive for all of these. D&D gets revised, Decipher is in it's third year of LOTR, Palladium Fantasy was just reprinted, GURPS Fantasy books are still in print, Hackmaster is fairly new by your standards, and you can still find Warhammer. And these, for the most part,  are well known products even by people who don't like fantasy.

Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2003, 08:44:39 PM »
Fantasy is a much broader genre than Steampunk, ...

Lets take Pendragon,

What if ten different game companies all came out tomorrow with different Arthurian games, lets say half or more are small press companies and the Arthurian game is their main product. In a year every single one of those small game companies will be dead unless their product is original enough to stand the test of time.

Pendragon is one of the only purely Arthurian games out there and their owner acknowledges that they have stretched thier market to the limit.

Steam Punk is a really small segment of the gaming community and cant support 10- or twenty different systems like fantasy can.

All of the games you have mentioned are at least innovative enough to inspire others to create while the game I am talking about is the Yugo that barely gets you out of the driveway.
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2003, 08:53:34 PM »
In addition, your proving my point with the revisions and reprintings. Why is it that D&D gets reprinted year after year and sells better than any other RPG, or that Palladium Fantasy is still in print... they were original for their time and they attracted a loyal fan base who pass on their love of the product to others.
D&D was first so it's got the best reputation of any game. When I tell people I roleplay they look at me blankly but when I say I play D&D or, its like D&D they nod knowingly.
Palladiums virtue was that it was cheap and easy to carry around at a time that most RPG's were still coming in boxes.
Warhammer was a big overseas hit with a high production value and an unusual class system. It can still be found but it hasent been in print for a couple of years.

and even if I hate Gurps with a passion it had a gimmick that helped it gain popularity the system itself.

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Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2003, 08:54:34 PM »
Arthuriana is an even smaller market than Steampunk. And there ARE a variety of games available for it.

And those fantasy games, as I said, are barely the beginning of it. I'd wager there are proportionately more current fantasy than there are Steampunk.

How well written it is has little bearing on how glutted the market is. No one disagrees it was poorly written (primarily because none of the rest of us have read it). I'll tell you what though, I'd buy fantasy steampunk before regular steampunk, just because I can excise fantasy pretty easily and just play, but it takes more time to add an otherwise non-extant aspect to a game (since I have to write it up).

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Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2003, 08:56:53 PM »
D&D isn't just a reprint, it's a new version. And the sales numbers go down. Each reprint sells less. None of those support the argument that a new cover increases sales significantly over a sustained period. D&D started OUT with more. Compare it's numbers to itself.

Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2003, 09:00:32 PM »
Hows 3.5 doing?

From the initial release Im sure the sales do go down, but Im sure they Plateau too.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2003, 09:01:41 PM by ElJeffe »
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Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2003, 09:02:56 PM »
compared to 3.0? from what I understand, not as well.

Besides, you're mixing terms again. I said reprints. Not new editions. THose are different.

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Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2003, 09:16:14 PM »
Not really, the games are still compatible, you yourself said most of the stuff was the same.

Besides would you argue that D&D isn't the biggest selling RPG out there (including the D20 products)
« Last Edit: October 06, 2003, 09:18:30 PM by ElJeffe »
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Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2003, 09:17:59 PM »
I said much of it. Not nearly all of it. There are a number of major changes, specifically in regards to content and some specific rules. It's definitely a different product.

But ok, fine. In spite of what hte facts are, you, indeed, and as always, are entirely without error.

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Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2003, 09:49:43 PM »
Ok, play the role of passive aggressive then.
You claim that Im ignoring facts, yet you havent offered me any... you havent given me any numbers, any compelling testimony, and no real evidence other than 42 is a publisher who knows more than I do, and that D&D sells less every year (but without any numbers to back that up). But I said I'll buy that last fact, but with a few caviats, their less and less is still probably more than the other top two game systems combined, and it will probably even out at a certain point so that they sell about the same amounts as the year before.  
First of all I was never just talking about putting a new cover on a game reprint and having it sell. System, quality and ingenuity all count too, I thought that those points were all understood because I had been talking about them ad nausem. Obviously they werent.

You tell me that there are a lot of rules specific games designed only for the Arthuriana Genre but dont tell me what they are (though I'll give you D&D and Gurps even though GURPS Camelot has been out of print since the 90's) which ticks me off a little because I rattled off a lot of steampunk ones for you guys, even forgetting that in 3e they have a steampunk setting too (DP9's Mecha book has a steampunk campaign).
But if you want to know why Im arguing at this point its because a guy who I thought was my friend has take a con stance on everthing I've said over the last week and its getting on my nerves.
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Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2003, 10:13:02 PM »
Okay Jeffe, here's my question. How large do you think (or speculate) the demographic is for steampunk?

To help you let me give you a rough idea or the RPG market. According to Palladium's web site, they sell about ten thousand of a given book per year.

Harry Potter Five sold about four million in it's first month.

I understand there is no way of you knowing what the exact number is, so I'm asking you to speculate. This might help me clearify what I'm saying.
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2003, 10:17:52 PM »
Id say 5,000-10,000 Steampunk genre core books would be good, 15,000 would be high.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2003, 10:19:08 PM by ElJeffe »
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Mad Dr Jeffe

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Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2003, 10:19:48 PM »
Nationally,... not globally. I have no idea what global numbers would be.
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Re: Zeitgeist
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2003, 10:36:07 PM »
I'm sorry. I didn't know that because we were friends I had to agree with you everytime you said something I didn't think was correct.

I'm not being passive aggressive, that's just my way of saying that I'm not arguing anymore because I think it IS fruitless. And instead of accusing my best friend of being a schmuck like someone else has done (and yes, you did. I realize you did not use that word, but yes, you did), I choose to end the argument.

i hate how you brush off everythigng I say too. THis extends over other threads. Apparently, if I point out that something bothers me, it doesn't matter if you say "it was a joke."

Now, since I can't end my part in an argument without being told that I'm being manipulative unless I get in your face about it, I'll just come out and say it. I'm not arguing this with you anymore. Is that ok? or does that mean I'm ignoring you?