Author Topic: Deep Throat  (Read 6945 times)

JP Dogberry

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Re: Deep Throat
« Reply #60 on: June 11, 2005, 03:46:59 AM »
It is done. Skar is the owner of Salt Lake City as soon as I am King of the World.

JadeKnight, on the other hand, is yet to prove worthiness to be given a barony. At the same time, Jersey is as of yet unclaimed. Therefore, it is done, unless I decide to be fickle and change my mind.

The next task is deciding the rest of the world, and more importantly, who shall join my harem.

As King of the world, is is of course imperitive no one has a larger or more impressive Harem than me.
Go go super JP newbie slapdown force! - Entropy

Chimera

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Re: Deep Throat
« Reply #61 on: June 11, 2005, 12:52:15 PM »
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The next task is deciding the rest of the world, and more importantly, who shall join my harem.

Sorry, JP, but I'm already spoken for by one Evil Overlord.  ;)
There is just no way you are the pine-scented air. --Billy Collins, "Litany"

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fuzzyoctopus

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Re: Deep Throat
« Reply #62 on: June 11, 2005, 03:36:12 PM »
Maybe they'll fight over you!
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Chimera

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Re: Deep Throat
« Reply #63 on: June 11, 2005, 03:39:21 PM »
Well I am highly desirable as a consort to evil greatness...
There is just no way you are the pine-scented air. --Billy Collins, "Litany"

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Entsuropi

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Re: Deep Throat
« Reply #64 on: June 11, 2005, 06:26:21 PM »
/me idly plots to backstab JP, loudly enough to make sure JP knows

(It's more fun that way)
If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

Fellfrosch

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Re: Deep Throat
« Reply #65 on: June 11, 2005, 11:28:49 PM »
No, that is fine, so long as the Evil Overlord remains loyal to me, he may keep you and he shall be rewarded. Fealty does not go unrewarded in my world, nor treachery unpunished.

Thus, the Evil undead Overlords first order of business will be the assassination of Entropy, who poses a political threat to me. He may do this in whatever manner he wishes.

If Entropy did indeed which to serve me loyally once more, I do have an opening for a Eunich advisor...
Go go super JP newbie slapdown force! - Entropy

Chimera

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Re: Deep Throat
« Reply #66 on: June 12, 2005, 04:52:30 AM »
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No, that is fine, so long as the Evil Overlord remains loyal to me, he may keep you and he shall be rewarded. Fealty does not go unrewarded in my world, nor treachery unpunished.

Oh good. I didn't want things to get messy (I've seen what EUOL can do with his undead powers). As for our reward for loyalty, we would like to put in a request for Hawaii and Korea (EUOL wants Korea, I can't see why. Maybe the food). If you can't swing Korea, Hawaii will be enough. Besides, keeping me IS a reward.  ;)
There is just no way you are the pine-scented air. --Billy Collins, "Litany"

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The Jade Knight

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Re: Deep Throat
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2005, 01:09:11 AM »
I've got dibs on the Society Isles, too, if you can manage.

If I've got Jersey and the Society Isles, I'll be  very faithful.  I'd even host your harem, if you'd like.
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Entsuropi

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Re: Deep Throat
« Reply #68 on: June 13, 2005, 09:41:34 AM »
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I'd even host your harem, if you'd like.


In jpeg format?
If you're ever in an argument and Entropy winds up looking staid and temperate in comparison, it might be time to cut your losses and start a new thread about something else :)

Fellfrosch

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Re: Deep Throat
« Reply #69 on: June 13, 2005, 10:16:20 AM »
I believe actual control of the world is a fight between Entropy, EUOL, and me. I don't know that I can speak authoritatively for others in the group, but I'm certain that none of us will treat kindly those who tried to curry favor from pretenders.

Anyway, I have to go with Fell. Crime is crime. He took an oath to defend the constitution as well. When his superiors are violating both the letter and spirit of the law of the land, the constitution is being pooped on. THAT is more important than the lives of people. As a journalist, if I knew that there wasn't another way this was being resolved, I would find it my DUTY to publish the information. I don't know whether Woodward and Bernstein knew that much. It's not my job to know their motivation. I'll leave that to God, or at least a jury of their peers. But blankly stating that there is no possible justification for printing the information is wrong.

I agree journalists should act responsibly. But they are also not guilty people seeking to harm people they disagree with.

As for who Felt chose to go to... Perhaps he could have gone to congress. Not sure that would have been effective, because there seems to be little point in going to an ally of Nixon. And if a political opponent of Nixon came out with it, it probably would not have resulted in consequences. The media as seen as less biased -- be that the actual case or not -- the public would believe them sooner than a congressman politically opposed to the presidential administration.

As for going public, that's been the procedure followed by other scandals when the president has not been held accountable for their crimes. In addition, I believe Felt had a legitimate fear for his life if he announced who he was. What good would that have done?

I don't think Felt is a hero, personally. Nor do I think he necessarily has an admirable character considering what he's done in the past and the way he and his family are treating this information. However, while I am far from certain that he made the correct choice regarding Watergate, I am further from certain that he deserves punishment regarding those same actions.

stacer

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Re: Deep Throat
« Reply #70 on: June 13, 2005, 11:33:03 AM »
I think what goes along with that is that the whole reason we have freedom of the press is to keep an eye on things like that. If Felt believed he had no other viable channels--channels in which justice would be served (ignoring the argument that someone should have similarly punished previous presidents for similar crimes--while I agree, I think that in this case, he had to look at this case)--if Felt believed justice would not be served if he went to political allies of Nixon, and there was no one else to turn to, I think Constitutionally that's the reason we have the press, isn't it? As a watchdog? To bring to light things swept under the rug?

Now--I'm NOT saying anybody in this case is more right than anyone else. But I am saying that the press's job is to watch out for stuff like this and bring it to light.
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Fellfrosch

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Re: Deep Throat
« Reply #71 on: June 13, 2005, 11:36:44 AM »
I suspect--and this is pure speculation here, given that I am unfamiliar with the public/political climate of the time--that keeping his identity secret was the best possible choice for Felt to actually get some results. If he came out publically he could have instantly been branded as Anti-Nixon, with political motivations that overshadowed his actual message of wrong-doing; people would have spent their time trying to analyze him (as we are doing now) and it would have been easier to ignore his allegations. By staying hidden, he took away the face and all that was left was the message--no one could say "oh, he's just grumpy" or "he just hates the president" or "he's just following a partisan agenda" because there was no 'he.'
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Skar

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Re: Deep Throat
« Reply #72 on: June 13, 2005, 12:13:51 PM »
Why is going to congress or any of the other federal agencies being treated as synonymous with going to a political ally of Nixon?  The republicans certainly didn't control one hundred percent of the entire legislative and judicial branches for heavens sake, not even close.  

I see the point you all seem to be arguing, that Felt certainly had to do something and what he did worked.  It has not been shown, IMO, that it was his only choice. It was certainly a satisfying choice for a disgruntled employee and it certainly played into the hands of the anti-nixon political crowd/press very nicely, but was definitely not his only choice.

We're also forgetting that it was proven that Nixon did not in fact know about the break in until after the fact and that what he actually got in trouble for was lying to try and protect his staffers. Which is wrong in any case but hardly on par with ordering them to do what they did or even allowing it go on with foreknowledge.

Felt used his privileged position and access to strike an ideological blow.  If he had tried to go through channels and been rebuffed at all turns then maybe he would have been justified in going to the press, and there'd be nothing wrong with doing it anonymously at that point.  I don't think he did try to go through channels.  My evidence being that if he had tried that before going to the press he would have been uncovered in about ten seconds because everyone he had gone to would recognize his statements when W&B plastered them all over the front pages.  Maybe he though that out ahead of time and that's why he didn't go through channels.

In the end it just doesn't seem reasonable to me, all my experience and observation speaks against it, that the federal government was so totally in thrall to Nixon that there was no one Felt could go to.

Incidentally, I don't think the journalists should go to jail, they were acting well within the bounds of acceptable legal behavior for journalists.  However, this statement I have a bit of a problem with.

Quote
He took an oath to defend the constitution as well. When his superiors are violating both the letter and spirit of the law of the land, the constitution is being pooped on. THAT is more important than the lives of people.
...
In addition, I believe Felt had a legitimate fear for his life if he announced who he was.


So by the combination of these two statements I get the impression that the constitution is worth the lives of people, but not -your- life, only other people's lives.

By this line of reasoning it is OK to anonymously blab to the press about a squad of soldiers or agents that has been sent on a covert mission in dangerous territory if you determine, all by yourself, that the president didn't have legal justification for authorizing their mission.  IMO that would NOT be OK so I guess we disagree pretty diametrically on this one.  (not that what Felt did was anything like that scenario but the principles involved and implied by the statement quoted are the same)


Anyway, I rambled enough.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2005, 12:16:18 PM by Skar »
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Re: Deep Throat
« Reply #73 on: June 13, 2005, 12:27:14 PM »
I agree, it has not been proven that he didn't have other channels. Not remotely. HOwever, it also hasn't been demonstrated that he DIDN'T do that, yet you call for his imprisonment, expressed with a finality that assumes he is guilty. I'm just saying there is a lot more complexity to it.

Also, no one here said going to congress was the equivelant of going to a Nixon ally. It has been said that going to a Nixon ally would be an obviously bad move and that going to somone who didn't like him would be seen as a partisan move, rather than be taken seriously.

I think that if you give your life when preserving it would better serve the reason you risked it, than dying would, then what you did is both needless and stupid. I don't think you can come to that conclusion safely from those two quotes.

Skar

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Re: Deep Throat
« Reply #74 on: June 13, 2005, 04:56:34 PM »
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I agree, it has not been proven that he didn't have other channels. Not remotely. HOwever, it also hasn't been demonstrated that he DIDN'T do that, yet you call for his imprisonment, expressed with a finality that assumes he is guilty. I'm just saying there is a lot more complexity to it.


The one thing that is sure is that he broke his oath, a crime punishable by imprisonment.  And as I said, doing that should carry consequences no matter the justification used.  Nixon was bloody well  impeached because he lied to protect his staff, Felt should be punished for breaking his oath, not hailed as some sort of nifty guy.  If he's not punished you've got legal precedent for underlings in possession of classified information spilling it to whoever they want, and not being punished as long as they "thought they had a good reason."  Ask yourself about the consequences if Felt had done exactly what he did but that the watergate action was a perfectly legal counterintelligence op, or any of a hundred other possibilities.  Classified information is compartmented for a reason and the only people that have the wherewithal to actually make sure that nothing legal and real is being endangered by the release of classified information are people like the National Security Advisor, the President, the Director of the CIA and so on.  Certainly not Felt.  

Quote

Also, no one here said going to congress was the equivelant of going to a Nixon ally. It has been said that going to a Nixon ally would be an obviously bad move and that going to somone who didn't like him would be seen as a partisan move, rather than be taken seriously.


Check.  I read too hastily.  As you say though, there is no evidence that he tried to go through channels at all.

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I think that if you give your life when preserving it would better serve the reason you risked it, than dying would, then what you did is both needless and stupid. I don't think you can come to that conclusion safely from those two quotes.


I'm not sure I followed this sentence but my point was that someone in possession of classified information, the release of which will endanger people in the field, should at least be willing to take the same risks the people he would expose are taking.

I probably misinterpreted your words, you're not an unreasonable guy but let me try again.

For example, Felt discovers that the president has illegally arranged for three CIA operatives to assassinate the president of Chechnya.  And he believes it's possible that if he goes through channels the powers that be will find out and have him quietly killed.  On the other hand, if he goes straight to the press, the operatives in Chechnya will be tortured to death.  He must go through channels first, wisely arranging for the information to go to the press should he die.  Certainly not anonymously spill it to the press first, preserving his own life at the expense of the operatives.

Again, not even remotely related to what Felt did but the principles are the same when dealing with classified information.
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