This kid rules

[Skar]

Sorry, "mixed up country" taken in context with this little gem being only one link away

"I'm sitting here crying while I type this, searching for a way to tell you how it transformed them into something a little bit better, how they started recognizing the world news for the first time and asking me when would our people stop fighting, start working together as one planet - simple ideas, good ideas, too simple for people who crave power. One day, a bad bad day, when many soldiers lost lives in that distant senseless war, my middle son stood with barefeet on the cold tile floor of the kitchen, listening to NPR, and clenched his fists in frustration.

"Why don't they stop fighting? We're never going to join a Federation of Planets if this continues. Don't they know that? Why don't they want to help end starvation instead? I wish we lived in the future."  "

leaves very little doubt in my mind as to her politics.

Don't get me wrong.  The teacher was wrong in her story and the kind of person who gives actual patriots a bad name.  

However, to climb up onto a soapbox of my own, this woman is just a tad naive if not downright stupid to be making snide comments about the country she lives in  and the war in Iraq while in the same post talking about things like public education and star trek (fantastic TV).  Both of which were impossibilities for the people in Iraq and/or Afghanistan in the absence of the "senseless" war we're waging there.

Perhaps she would prefer to live under a regime like the Taliban or Saddam?  Or is that kind of misery reserved only for people who aren't her, perhaps only for women and children who are light brown?  Perhaps she would prefer to have died in the Trade Towers? Then she wouldn't be faced with all the pain of raising two boys alone.  

I fully support, and sacrificed a great deal to preserve, her right to hold and express the views she does.  I also have the right to heap scorn on her inexcusably silly ideas.

[Archon]

I agree that, despite seemingly good intentions, she was out of place, in this case. However, in the other case, I still stand. She simply said that our country was mixed up, not that it was fighting a mixed up war, or anything in that regard. I think that in that case her position can be easily defended without using the war in Iraq. Things like the Patriot act, and this recent business with confiscating homes definitely indicate that our country is out of sorts right now. Before anyone jumps on me, I am not saying anything against our country, because I am proud to live here. However, the fact of the matter is that we have some problems right now that we have to sort out. Therefore, I don't think that recognizing that we have problems is out of line, because the country will be much better off when these problems are addressed.

[Oseleon]

One of the most dangerous falacies that is spread in the modern age is the idea that "violence never solved anything"

War is never good, but sometimes it is the correct course of action.  

Lets micro it down
Is it "good" to kill someone in self defense?
no
But, It is correct to do so.  
That is why the law makes the allowance.  Despite the fact that killing is not "good"

Is war a "good" thing?
no
But fightnig a series of small wars to prevent a great conflaguration is the correct thing to do.  

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

However,..., this woman is just a tad naive if not downright stupid to be making snide comments about the country she lives in...

I think it is ridiculous that a person cannot ridicule their country without getting scorn.  People are going to be unhappy with the things their country does--it happens.  Whether or not you agree with her opinion, I don't think you should scorn her for saying it just because it isn't patriotic BS.  Anybody who claims they are 100% happy with the country they live in is either very stupid or very scared.

The problem isn't that people complain about their country, the problem is that nobody listens.  I'm not saying her argument was persuasive, by any means, or that she had a well defended idea, but just because she wasn't  spouting out, "I love America!  Hot Dogs, Baseball, Candy Canes!"  she's anti-american and should try living under some other government?  Just because she's complaining doesn't mean she doesn't appreciate the country, just like her complaining about raising two kids on her own doesn't mean she would rather have died in the 9/11 attacks.  Complaints are how things are changed, not complience, and that is why people who speak their mind are important.

[Skar]

I think that her use of the phrase "mixed up country," in light of her other comments, which I quoted, probably referred to the war in Iraq, and I still grant that she has the right to think and teach her kids whatever she wants.  But, if taken alone, without referring to other things she has said, then sure, her calling ours a mixed up country is less objectionable.  

I agree that our country/government/politicians are doing a fair bit of floundering.  Confiscation of homes by the government on behalf of business interests, that's insane.  Teaching, as a matter of federal policy, homosexuality in public schools, that's insane.  Killing Terry Schiavo in the absence of written insructions from her and in the presence of her parents who wished to care for her, and pay for that care, that's insane.  You'll note that (to be prejudiced and make unfair sweeping generalizations about people who hold the views she's expressed in what we've read and live the lifestyle she lives) all those things I just listed were probably fully supported by our favorite startrek mom.

Insane.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I still have a lot more sympathy for the woman than anything else. She has to explain why we're killing people to an EIGHT YEAR OLD BOY. A boy who has seen a vision where everyone lives in peace and things work out. Yes, it's a fantasy, YOu know thoat, I know that, the 8yo boy probably will admit it. But I don't believe he can have internalized it. And he sits there and listens to reports about people blowing each other up. And she watches her sons innocence  being stripped away violently.

Yet all you guys want to do is talk about her showing "sincear disrespect" to her country?

1) there was nothing in THAT SPECIFIC ENTRY that said ANYTHING whatsoever about her views on any politics, really. Yet you continue to insist that her words in that story indicated her disgust with the U.S. An unreasonable conclusion. It doesn't matter if it was somewhere else, because then it isn't germain to this story.

2) I'm sorry, but it makes me violently angry to hear that disagreeing with a president or a military action constitutes unpatriotic feeling OR anti-American sentiment. That sort of connection makes NO sense and is not true.

So you're still wrong. What you could say, and still at least be accurate (although still looking like you're looking for a reason to persecute rather than just enjoy a story) is that you disagree with her politics, (so that makes her a "doofus"?) but that's not the same as being unpatriotic, disrespectful, or saying America is obvious.

[Skar]

I think it is ridiculous that a person cannot ridicule their country without getting scorn.  

Note that I said I reserved the right to heap scorn on her ideas, not her.

Before anyone blows a gasket, I admit that in the heat of the moment, I did in fact call her naive and stupid.  My error.  I doubt that she is stupid, I really meant her ideas on the war in Iraq were stupid.  And the epithet naive commonly refers to the ideas someone holds or their method of thinking rather than their person.  I apologize to startrek mom and anyone here who was offended.

I'm not saying her argument was persuasive, by any means, or that she had a well defended idea, but just because she wasn't  spouting out, "I love America!  Hot Dogs, Baseball, Candy Canes!"  she's anti-american and should try living under some other government?  Just because she's complaining doesn't mean she doesn't appreciate the country, just like her complaining about raising two kids on her own doesn't mean she would rather have died in the 9/11 attacks.  Complaints are how things are changed, not complience, and that is why people who speak their mind are important.

Who said she was anti-american?  Not I.  I said she was naive and stupid.  Of course she wouldn't want to live under any other government and of course she wouldn't want to have died in the 9/11 attacks. Those were what are called rhetorical questions.  What I was attempting to point  out (and failing apparently) are the connections between her not having to live under a despotic regime or die in a gout of flaming jet fuel, and the very things she objects to.

If inexcusably silly ideas do not have scorn heaped on them then they get implemented.  In a country like ours, where the people essentially run things, it is everyone's duty to heap scorn on bad ideas while advancing good ones.  The ideas that survive to be put into practice will, inevitably, tend to be better than those that don't.

I agree with you Gorgon, mindlessly mouthing patriotic platitudes is pointless if not dangerous and not at all what I was espousing. (sorry about the alliteration, I didn't do it on purpose I promise)

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Well, then I can start to agree.

However, I don't want to get in to another argument about the justification for our current little wars. I don't think we'll say anything else that hasn't already made all of us mad, nor do I think it will go anywhere.
But neither do I think it has a place in the discussion about this kid's suspension.

[Skar]

I still have a lot more sympathy for the woman than anything else. She has to explain why we're killing people to an EIGHT YEAR OLD BOY. A boy who has seen a vision where everyone lives in peace and things work out. Yes, it's a fantasy, YOu know thoat, I know that, the 8yo boy probably will admit it. But I don't believe he can have internalized it. And he sits there and listens to reports about people blowing each other up. And she watches her sons innocence  being stripped away violently.

Yet all you guys want to do is talk about her showing "sincear disrespect" to her country?

How about my 7 year old, to whom my wife and I successfully explained why his dad was over their killing people.  Now he has to listen to people like her call what I did, and what he went through (two years without his dad) mixed up and senseless.  I will continue to object to her doing that, while at the same time supporting her right to do so.  Are you really saying I shouldn't disagree, or don't have the right to?

1) there was nothing in THAT SPECIFIC ENTRY that said ANYTHING whatsoever about her views on any politics, really. Yet you continue to insist that her words in that story indicated her disgust with the U.S. An unreasonable conclusion. It doesn't matter if it was somewhere else, because then it isn't germain to this story.

It was germaine when you wanted to be able to point out that she hadn't made that point anywhere in her blog:

I don't think you can claim to know what she was alluding to. There's no content I've found at  all (in her comments or in the blog itself) that she's talking about anything specific at all.

 But now that it's been pointed out that it was obvious what she was alluding to given another post in her blog, which she linked to from the story in question, it suddenly doesn't matter?  Come on.  And for that matter, has anyone accused her of anti-american sentiment or disgust with the U.S. as a whole? No.  Every objection raised has been directly related to her stance on a specific issue, that being the war in Iraq.  So I don't know where you're coming from on the whole unreasonable conclusion front.

2) I'm sorry, but it makes me violently angry to hear that disagreeing with a president or a military action constitutes unpatriotic feeling OR anti-American sentiment. That sort of connection makes NO sense and is not true.

No one has said this either.  What has been said is that objecting to the war in Iraq is naive and stupid. It could also be argued that an intelligent person espousing views that obviously do not make sense, which disagree with actions the country or president have taken, may indicate unreasoning hatred for America and perhaps a partisan hatred for the president.  But I say again, no one has said either of those things, probably because those aren't conclusions that can be drawn with confidence from the limited material, two entries in this woman's blog.  Methinks you protest too much.

So you're still wrong. What you could say, and still at least be accurate (although still looking like you're looking for a reason to persecute rather than just enjoy a story) is that you disagree with her politics, (so that makes her a "doofus"?) but that's not the same as being unpatriotic, disrespectful, or saying America is obvious.

Nope, I'm not wrong (how do you like that?  ttthhhhhpphhhhht.)  I do disagree with her politics, and her claiming that the war in Iraq is senseless, without backing it up with any reasons or logical thought, is offensive to me because I participated in it and am proud to have done so.  And I point out, again, no one said she was unpatriotic.  You came up with that one on your own.  As for my looking for a reason to persecute, how does this constitute persecution:  

There was some laughing at the situation but there was also lots of "America is bad because we're at war in Iraq, can't we all just get along" rhetoric.  She wasn't trying to convince anyone it was just obvious that all right thinking people agreed with her subtext on that point.

But you're right, America is, "Obvious"  

Edit: Got interrupted at work, posted this before I read e's reply to my reply to Gorgon, take this in that light.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

by "blog" I refer to the post itself. THat was not clear, however, but I'm sure that we don't really care to argue that point, it being off subject.

As for my intrepretaion of what you and Oseleon have said, perhaps I've unfairly grouped you with him. But even as you admitted, you did misspeak earlier, and he used the word "sincear disrespect" (which is more or less the equivelant of saying she's unpatriotic), so I don't think I've said anything out of line in that regard.

I think my big issue with that last bit being "persecution" is that you're attempting to say she unfairly made an argument that didn't NEED any supporting statements to make the comment relevant to the subject she was currently discussing.

[Skar]

Roger dodger.  She was not in fact writing a post about her political views.  This whole discussion has pretty much been feeding on itself I think.

I don't think there's anyone here who thinks the teacher and principal did the right thing.  And the only point I was trying to make with my original post was that the tone of her writing was smugly leftist.  Perhaps that opinion formed after I read the bit she linked to.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

I'm going to feed the discussion another newbie. ANyone object?

[Skar]

Go ahead.  Yummy!

[Chimera]

There sure have been a lot of them lately. And none of them have bothered to introduce themselves, or even post. At least I introduced myself and tried to contribute intelligently to the discussions (tried--not necessarily succeeded). It's hard to welcome them to the community if we don't know who they are.

Perhaps that is their plan--retain anonymity to avoid being fed to rampaging discussions or slapped down by over-eager overlords.  

[Archon]

I think you give them too much credit. I am not quite sure why they do this, but most of them make accounts without ever having the intention of posting. And we only slap down the people who deserve it.