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Messages - jacobfake

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it's probably nothing but I noticed the axehound and the chasmfiend have similarly shaped heads, at least the way the top comes to a point and the front of the face is drawn from the side as a straight vertical kinda have to just know what i'm talking about haha but it stood out to me

edit: ack sorry slightly off topic but i'm still curious if you noticed that

Brandon Sanderson / Re: szeth and the shin
« on: September 16, 2010, 06:53:33 AM »
yeah that's what I mean. Walking on stone is taboo for Shin, so his honor would never have allowed him to do it. By becoming truthless, however, his sense of honor forced him to walk on stone to carry out his punishment. Thus, by becoming truthless he was able to leave his homeland and possibly encounter further evidence of the voidbringers.

Brandon Sanderson / Re: szeth and the shin
« on: September 16, 2010, 06:12:00 AM »
i'm pretty sure the truthlessness was in fact a punishment (vs grogg) because of the interlude with the merchant meeting the shin, which referenced them having traded szeth to him originally and refused to take payment (threw it in the river). It still doesn't seem to make sense what purpose the Shin hoped to accomplish with his punishment. Why would they just give him away like that? Why not exile him without making him a servant, didn't they realize the terrible things his masters might command of him? how is it that they label him a criminal but yet expect his honor to keep him sticking to his oathstone?

besides being a "liar," (as i imagine it, preaching that another desolation was coming, made truthless for blasphemy) truthless might also refer to his strangely missing spren or giving away truths to get into shadesmar.

One crazy thing would be- what if he was declared truthless for saying the voidbringers were coming like above ^^ but when he goes to the shattered plains he finally meets the parshendi and recognizes them as proof that he was right? (or sees a chasmfiend=proof?, regardless that would be another crazy fun horrible moral crisis for him) Could he have originally accepted his truthlessness so that he would be able to walk on stone and leave his homeland specifically to find the voidbringers?

Brandon Sanderson / Re: WOK Spoilers: Parshmen
« on: September 14, 2010, 11:38:20 PM »
Pg 15

    The monstrosity was vaguely skeletal in shape, with unnaturally long limbs that sprouted from granite shoulders. The eyes were deep red spots on the arrowhead face, as if created by a fire burning deep within the stone.

Pg 850

    Massive creatures, easily five or six times the seize of a person, their skin dull and grey like granite. They had long limbs and skeletal bodies, the forelegs-or were they arms?-set into wide shoulders. The faces were lean, narrow. Arrowlike.

so, Brandon seems to be going to a lot of trouble to let us know the two creatures are the same. Also, notice the ones in the vision are the ones described as massive. The point about that implying that voidbringers are something specific seems pretty good. It could also be, though, that voidbringers was specific to thunderclasts, or specific to parshendi, and the other was considered like "those weaker guys who fight with the voidbringers," or maybe one group was specifically leading the desolations with the other the foot-soldiers, though idk if nights essence are foot soldiers, since the clarification could've been because nights essence didn't actually do any of the fighting in the army v army desolations, they just rampaged random defenseless towns.

Brandon Sanderson / Re: WOK Spoilers: Parshmen
« on: September 14, 2010, 06:27:45 AM »
what about Dalinar's vision though? (with their bodies lying throughout kholinar)

Brandon Sanderson / Re: WOK Spoilers: Parshmen
« on: September 14, 2010, 05:16:26 AM »
There does seem to be a notable absence of any sort of "warspren," and this would be explained if every single Parshendi had bonded with a warspren, since lots of parshendi bonded with lots of warspren = strange absence of warspren. This would also explain the Parshendi's at first inexplicable assassination of King Gavilar, because it provoked a war, and it could also explain why they seem content to hang out on the plains fighting the Alethi without ever really trying to end the fighting or escape. It would also explain their weird sense of honor on the battlefield, since there usually is supposed to be "honor in war" or something like that, at least in medieval/fantasy settings there usually is. The way they grow armor stuff could be the type of surgebinding that is granted by bonding with a war spren. I would be interested to know if they already had the armor when Gavilar originally discovered them.
       (What if there are still more surgebinding powers even beyond what the knights radiant used? Like, the knights radiant were bonded with a specific ten types of spren but a Nahel bond with any type of spren would produce at least some type of surgebinding.)

Since the Chasmfiends go into chrysalis, they have to become something, and Thunderclasts definitely seem the most likely candidates. However, one thing is: what about all the other Great Shells? Do they all become Thunderclasts? No way, although maybe there are more voidbringers we haven't been introduced to yet.
And, the Parshendi become chasmfiends become thunderclasts theory isn't directly contradicted by the low number of chasmfiends, as it could be like a "seed is planted, only grows into chasfiends sometimes" sort of things, and nor is it contradicted by them cutting open the chasmfiends because they could never hold the plateau long enough for the chasmfiend to completely change, and the parshendi would cut it open regardless, so they might as well cut it open to feed their army.
     ---perhaps the parshmen only become parshendi when they bond with warspren, although I have no idea how that would happen since the parshmen are so docile

That line about "his punishment demanded they didn't, his honor demanded they did," though, is very interesting. I hadn't even noticed it so thanks to whoever brought it up.

Brandon Sanderson / Re: WOK Spoilers: Parshmen
« on: September 08, 2010, 07:42:09 AM »
One other possibility - what if the Thunderclasts were the only voidbringers, and parshmen fought on our side against them? And then we turned on them and enslaved them after. And then the Radiants quit because of that betrayal, they wanted no part of it. Of course, the epigraphs probably disprove that pretty quickly but it sounded good when I thought of it.

Brandon Sanderson / Re: WOK Spoilers: Parshmen
« on: September 08, 2010, 07:22:27 AM »

On when they run after Kaladin's lashing, it's possible they freak out because they pass down stories or legends about the radiants.

I agree.  But the question is, do they act from fear, honor, reverence?  At first they try to fight him, but then they just leave him be.  Out of respect for his skills?  Maybe.  But what's with the chant then?

If they were voidbringers and evil beings, why wouldn't they try and kill him right then and there?

I'm still gonna go with fear just because if it was honor or reverence then why would they  have let all of the other Parshendi attack him? If they were consciously saying that they didn't want to attack him, then they would at least try to tell the other guys not to attack him either. Versus, running out of fear fits because even bad guys feel fear, and it also can fit with the chant because they seem to just chant related to whatever they're doing; if it's the first time they feel fear in the battle, then it would make sense for it to be a new chant they weren't singing before.

The talking before death thing is because the Everdesolation or whatever (you know what I'm talking about, I hope) is about to come.

Yes.  But Taravangian (and likely Jasnah) will link the coming of these occurrences with the meeting with the Parshendi.  And likely they are linked... but in what way?  Does the meeting signify that a war will come, or is the clashing of the two cultures a form of weakening the people that would stand against the voidbringers, or is it because Gavilar found that stone (perhaps he stole it from them?), or is it just coincidence?

The fact that there is overwhelming evidence for the Parshendi/Parshmen being the voidbringers, and the fact that the meeting of the two coincide with the onset of the Everstorm... it just seems fishy.  Either there's some sort of major twist coming, or the Parshendi aren't the true threat of the voidbringers.  I mean, all that evidence in book one feels way too convenient to me.

Yeah once I get my book back I'm definitely gonna go back and reread those chapter intros. I was thinking just something like supernatural stuff starts going crazy when the Everstorm is here.
More importantly, though, the question of Parshendi v voidbringer does keep coming up. However, the "We didn't kill them, we enslaved them," or whatever Jasnah said was so styled like a big reveal that it has to be at least pretty true. Also, the evidence is huge when you know about it, but I didn't really see it coming so you might have just got it faster than everyone.

The one thing that doesn't seem to match up, though, is that in that vision with (Nomahodon?) Dalinar is told that they are "never ready for it." This doesn't seem to make sense at all; if it is one enemy, and you've got like a thousand years in between to prepare, then how much more do you need to be ready? It's possible that they always wait until humanity begins to forget about them and then strike, but that doesn't make sense because the Knights Radiant stay there the whole time. I was thinking maybe like there different types of voidbringers attacking each time, or maybe different slaves rise up and betray them each time, but that's total speculation.
The main thing that really doesn't seem to add up with this, though, is that the Parshendi really aren't that strong. Fighting out on the plains, it's like, probably tilted in the Alethi favor. Unless they just come in like massive numbers, it seems either the Thunderclasts or some other species would have to be the main threat, or the Parshmen would have to be much more deadly than Parshendi, or when they really want to fight they must just be like way stronger.

It seemed like Parshendi were just Parshmen after they got set off.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I meant that, as I read it originally, there was something (i.e. command from Odium) that would launch Parshmen into attack mode, and this had just been applied to the Parshendi and not the Parshmen.

assassinating Gavilar didn't help the unification effort at all
-if anything, they are acting perfectly to prevent unification, because if the highprinces were at home then Dalinar could be conquering and Elhokar could be taking over, versus on the plains they stayed in the state of disarray for 6 years.

Maybe.  But consider that Gavilar was the only one who believed in the Codes at the time.  He would not have lasted long as king (and he didn't, now did he?).  And Dalinar at the time thought that unity could come from conquering.  I could go on, but for now let me just say that no, I don't think there's really any chance that there would have been unity with Gavilar on the throne.  However, killing the new king and thus FORCING all the highprinces to go to war? Hm.

I'm not saying it makes much sense, I'm just trying to find a way to make the oddities of the Parshendi make some sort of sense.  They're definitely not what they seem, and it just feels too easy to label them as voidbringers.  I mean, the evidence is overwhelming, and I can't see how it's wrong at this point, but... I don't know. Sanderson is a tricky guy, and this smacks of trickery to me.

I think I'm going to have to disagree because Dalinar is presented as a total military expert, and when he is commenting on Elhokar's performance as king he points out that the kingdom is in the most dangerous phase of it's development, where the strong king around which the princes can unite is dead, and the kingdom is at its most vulnerable because it's all up to the second in line. Gavilar and Dalinar were the super combo that united all the Alethi highprinces and still had plenty of momentum left, and if BWS was going to take the angle that Gavilar wouldn't have been able to hold it together, then this line would have definitely been given to a character who wasn't an expert on it, if not removed entirely.

Although, definitely no argument on Sanderson being a tricky guy :p

Brandon Sanderson / Re: WOK Spoilers: Parshmen
« on: September 08, 2010, 06:50:24 AM »
Thunderclasts and Voidbringers are not the same thing.  In the Prelude, Kalak describes an enormous stone beast, that's a Thunderclast.

Yeah that's what I was thinking of. And the prelude is describing the scene after the Desolation where the Heralds finally abandoned them, with things like "Orange violet and red blood" --the red from humans, orange from parshmen, and violet from thunderclasts. The thunderclasts show up again in Dalinar's vision were he talks to the guy who wrote the way of kings--the stone beasts he sees on the ground, if you compare the descriptions, are literally identical: they both are described as having arrow like heads, skeletal bodies, and appearing to be made from stone. Also, the descriptions of them as massive beasts match the descriptions given for the voidbringers as being a little under 20 feet. Because the only word used in legends to refer to whatever force attacked during the desolations is "Voidbringers" any definition of voidbringers would have to include all of the forces that attacked during the desolations, among which were the Thunderclasts, as seen in both scenes.

The Parshendi don't have Surgebinders.  They have those little bits of gems in their beards that have Stormlight in them, that may be what you're thinking of.

No, I'm thinking of the prelude where Kalak describes massive cracks in the ground where surgebinders fought. That could be read to mean only that human surgebinders fought against voidbringers, but a more natural reading would seem to be that surgebinders fought against each other, since the verb is left open ended like that. This is especially because in the prologue Szeth mentions legends that match the height description of Thunderclasts, and also says that Voidbringers are able to hold in stormlight perfectly (after he breathes it in and starts leaking). Also, being one of the Shin and having gotten his information from the same sources that taught him how to use lashings and be a like super powerful windrunner, which almost nobody in the world even knows exists anymore, his sources are probably more reliable than any of the other "modern day" ones. Also, it seems unlikely that Brandon would plant secret hints that you would never even notice if you weren't paying attention, and then end up saying they were false legends, as it seems to be much more likely a foreshadowing technique so that after the the big reveal re-reads of the series will leave us going like "Oh my god it was right there the whole time!" Regardless, it seems likely that some group among the Voidbringers had surge binding of some sort, and I just kind of figured the Parshmen were a lot more likely than thunderclasts.

The only reason that the Parshendi Shardbearer didn't kill Dalinar is that Kaladin stepped in and stabbed him.
That's fine as long as we agree that they're not secretly trying to unify the Alethi like whoever I meant that in response to said.

And it seems like the Parshendi were more afraid of Kaladin than anything.  They just are disciplined enough not to run from him.

Actually they do run from him, when he speaks the Words and reverse lashes all of the arrows to his shield, all of the ones that see it run away. And then all fight later on, but I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Anyways, sorry I didn't have my book to get the exact pages for the quotes--lent it to my brother--and I think more people have commented since Fireborn but I'm just going to post this since I already wrote it all out

Brandon Sanderson / Re: WoK: The Heralds *Spoilers*
« on: September 08, 2010, 06:28:40 AM »
As far as the Heralds being alive or not goes, if they die they're blades vanish, (quoted somewhere earlier in this thread) so if they're still alive, then where are the blades? It's possible they're like off in a distant land (wherever the prelude takes place) but if the Parshmen are voidbringers that would be like shattered plains or the Parshendi homeland, plus on US Hardcover 997 the Almighty says "And...without the Dawnshards...Well, I have done what I can." seeming to imply that the Dawnshards are no longer accessible to humans, as in gone because the Heralds are dead. Also, in the prelude Kalak says that the Heralds freely took up the burden of being heralds, as in they were normal men before, which would seem to imply that once they abandon the oathpact they go back to being mortal and die.
    -one thing, though, is that the Almighty seems to imply that there will be no Dawnshards available to humans and yet when Taln shows up it seems like it's "Oh hey I just got released from suffering because another desolation is here." which would seem to mean that he will be fighting on their side and that that shardblade will be available to them. But maybe the Almighty just meant like without all the shardblades.

     -also, what's up with the Heralds even suffering in between Desolations in the first place? That seems to be the Oathpact, but I originally read it like suffering in hell, which would seem more like guys on Odium's side than the Almighty. It's possible they like agreed to suffer in order to wield amazing powers, and that's what the Oathpact was, except where are they suffering and why would Odium ever agree to that deal/ if he didn't then who did?

      -also, if he came back for the last desolation, why does he collapse? What's he so tired out from, and how could he not have failed? Does anyone want to take a guess on what his time line is for the story? As in, first he's betrayed and sent to suffer. Then the last desolation comes and he's released. Then he goes to Kholinar to help out. Except, what happened immediately before going to Kholinar or if nothing then what does he think he did wrong?

I guess I'm mostly just looking for more theories on these things.

Brandon Sanderson / Re: WOK Spoilers: Parshmen
« on: September 08, 2010, 04:55:38 AM »
Some slightly disorganized thoughts it would be cool if anyone could comment on:

On when they run after Kaladin's lashing, it's possible they freak out because they pass down stories or legends about the radiants.

The talking before death thing is because the Everdesolation or whatever (you know what I'm talking about, I hope) is about to come.

what happened to parshendi surge binders?
wait how would parshendi surge binders even work, without the radiant ideals, did they also bind with spren?

It seemed like Parshendi were just Parshmen after they got set off.

assassinating Gavilar didn't help the unification effort at all
-if anything, they are acting perfectly to prevent unification, because if the highprinces were at home then Dalinar could be conquering and Elhokar could be taking over, versus on the plains they stayed in the state of disarray for 6 years.

  -this was why I was thinking they could be acting from Odium's commands, intended to prevent the unification that might enable the Alethi to stand against the Everstorm. Of course, the honor thing still doesn't make sense.

-why didn't the parshendi have Szeth come back to them after killing Gavilar? They just gave him up?

we don't actually know what the parshendi shard bearer would have done with dalinar, having been interrupted, he might have been planning to question him, beat him up, etc. and then kill him.

where did the parshendi come from?
how does parshendi surge binding work? (prologue says they can hold storm light in without leaking)

the one thing that really doesn't seem to add up, though, is still the conflict between the Parshendi being honorable versus fighting on the side of the thunderclasts and the Almighty stepping in on the side of alethkar

-are the Thunderclasts like super strong or something? Because the parshendi definitely don't seem to be on par the total ownage described alongside the desolations

PLEASE put more theories on why they are honorable & why they respect the dead so much

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