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Rants and Stuff / Re: General Religious discussion
« on: July 10, 2009, 06:58:44 AM »
I really shouldn't be doing this, but I'm going to post again in hopes that getting things off my chest will allow me to stop obsessing about this thread. If anybody feels offended by what I'm about to say, then chalk it up to my physical and mental exhaustion and sleep deprivation.
My mental state for the last several days has been terrible. I have been fighting a constant battle against anxiety and depression with obsessive tendencies for years, and this thread is making me lose ground at the moment. I'm certainly losing sleep over it, and with an 18 month old, I can't afford that. During the last several days my mind has swung from one extreme of feverishly ruminating on the arguments I'd love to make, coming up with all sorts of really good analogies that I'm sure mtbikemom won't even acknowledge in her responses (For instance, does knowing that several of the founding fathers were less than exemplary in their personal lives, especially relating to the slaves they owned, make you want to renounce your citizenship and trash the constitution?), to the other extreme of complete lethargy so that I'm barely able to feed myself and my family. This is what certain kinds of stress does to me, and I know the symptoms to know what I should do (cut off the source of stress completely), but lack the mental willpower (due to my illness) to accomplish it as quickly as I'd like.
Why won't I read the book? Is it because I'm intellectually lazy and prefer ignorance to facing the truth? NO. It's because I have more things to do with my life than humor the whims of every jerk with an axe to grind. I haven't had time to read Brandon's latest book, Warbreaker. What makes you think I'm going to put that off to satisfy you? I don't watch Law and Order or CSI on TV because the constant focus on the negative brings me down. I don't watch certain other shows because the commercials tell me that the content they're proudest of is offensive and degrading, and drives the Holy Spirit from my home. I haven't read the Stephanie Meyer Vampire books because I've had a bad experience with what thinking about Vampires does to my mind, and people whose opinion I trust tell me they're a waste of time anyway. Am I physically lazy for not trying every new vitamin, pill, and antidepressant some pharmaceutical company tries to sell me? Am I morally obligated to sample every bit of poison drug dealers peddle so that I can know that they're harmful? I don't think so.
I know, because I know myself, that reading this book won't make me happy. I doubt there will be anything in it that is worse than my imagination can come up with. But even if the worst parts of it are true, it still wouldn't shake my faith in the truthfulness of the Gospel, and the value of being a member of this Church.
According to my theology, each person is accountable for their own sins. I am no more responsible for what those men did in the massacre than I am burdened with Original Sin because Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Your theology may differ, but that's not my problem.
I am not interested in debating one isolated event, no matter how heinous. Christ died to atone for our sins...ALL of them. If we recognize our mistakes, turn from them and repent, the Lord will forgive. That's the essence of the Good News of the Gospel. Suppose that Brigham young personally fired every one of the shots that killed those travelers (a statement which we know to be false). We know from his actions before and after the event, that this was an aberration. Something happened which caused some people to react horribly in the heat of the moment, but once the act was done, the church as a whole, including the First Presidency, said, "This is not who we are. This is not how we want to be known. This is not how we're going to act. Nothing like this is EVER to happen again, is that clear?" And nothing like it ever did. They turned from their sins and repented and forsook them. Isn't that what we're all supposed to do? And didn't Jesus Christ himself say something like you're supposed to forgive seventy times seven? This was ONE. One very bad thing, but just one. Elsewhere, it says, "I the Lord will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men." In Matthew 6:15 He says "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
And what has the Church done since then? Led a campaign of murder and oppression? No, we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and man hours in humanitarian service. We offer our truth to the world without coercion. If someone wants to leave the church, we're sorry to see them go, but we don't kidnap them, hold them against their wills and forbid them to communicate with family members. We let them go, with our love, and occasionally reach out to say that the door is still open if they wish to return. I know from real experience and experimentation in my own life that in the church is where happiness and spiritual growth lies for me. This is not some passing whim, or a faith that can be shaken by hearing any "shocking" story about how another human being made a mistake.
I have journals from people in my own family describing they joy they felt when they found the early church and recognized the truth that their fathers had been searching for for generations. I have read how they moved again and again to escape mobs and other violent persecution. I've read to the end, where the handwriting changes and another family member wrote of how my something Great Grandfather died of one of the rampant diseases at Winter Quarters. They, and all the generations since then have studied and prayed and believed with all their hearts. So don't presume to teach me my own family and cultural history with a book designed to defame a great man and continue the persecution that has been heaped upon us for more than a hundred and fifty years. Don't fall into Satan's trap and continue the persecution yourself. Give me the right to believe what I believe, and I'll do the same for you.
Since I won't be coming back to this thread, I just want to point out that it has been categorically stated several times in General Conference that no man or woman who does not have the chance to be married in the temple in this life will lose any blessings in eternity because of it. If they keep the covenants they make, they will have all the blessings anybody else does. That includes those who do not have access to a temple, those who never met the right person, and those who can't bear children for any reason. Those who have the chance, but choose not to take it are a different matter. Who is to say who was given a fair chance? Only God at the judgment bar.
As for Matt 22:30, Jesus essentially said, "I'm not going to dignify your question with an answer because you're not asking for the sake of knowing, but only because you think it'll trip me up. Under the Law of Moses, in the Old Testament, there is no ordinance for eternal marriage. Stop worrying about what happens to dead people and take a look at what you're doing while you're alive." Now, because the Law of Moses was a preparatory gospel, and doesn't include several of the ordinances we consider necessary for salvation, there are a lot of people whose fate seems uncertain. We've been told not to worry about them, that God is just and merciful, and that however it works out in Heaven, we'll all be happy with the arrangement.
And now, I'm going to sign off. You may have holes to poke in what I've said, but really, I don't care. You're not asking these questions for the sake of understanding, but just to get a reaction and try to tangle us up in our words. So, since Jesus felt good about saying it, I do too. I'm not going to dignify this discussion with any more response.
My mental state for the last several days has been terrible. I have been fighting a constant battle against anxiety and depression with obsessive tendencies for years, and this thread is making me lose ground at the moment. I'm certainly losing sleep over it, and with an 18 month old, I can't afford that. During the last several days my mind has swung from one extreme of feverishly ruminating on the arguments I'd love to make, coming up with all sorts of really good analogies that I'm sure mtbikemom won't even acknowledge in her responses (For instance, does knowing that several of the founding fathers were less than exemplary in their personal lives, especially relating to the slaves they owned, make you want to renounce your citizenship and trash the constitution?), to the other extreme of complete lethargy so that I'm barely able to feed myself and my family. This is what certain kinds of stress does to me, and I know the symptoms to know what I should do (cut off the source of stress completely), but lack the mental willpower (due to my illness) to accomplish it as quickly as I'd like.
Why won't I read the book? Is it because I'm intellectually lazy and prefer ignorance to facing the truth? NO. It's because I have more things to do with my life than humor the whims of every jerk with an axe to grind. I haven't had time to read Brandon's latest book, Warbreaker. What makes you think I'm going to put that off to satisfy you? I don't watch Law and Order or CSI on TV because the constant focus on the negative brings me down. I don't watch certain other shows because the commercials tell me that the content they're proudest of is offensive and degrading, and drives the Holy Spirit from my home. I haven't read the Stephanie Meyer Vampire books because I've had a bad experience with what thinking about Vampires does to my mind, and people whose opinion I trust tell me they're a waste of time anyway. Am I physically lazy for not trying every new vitamin, pill, and antidepressant some pharmaceutical company tries to sell me? Am I morally obligated to sample every bit of poison drug dealers peddle so that I can know that they're harmful? I don't think so.
I know, because I know myself, that reading this book won't make me happy. I doubt there will be anything in it that is worse than my imagination can come up with. But even if the worst parts of it are true, it still wouldn't shake my faith in the truthfulness of the Gospel, and the value of being a member of this Church.
According to my theology, each person is accountable for their own sins. I am no more responsible for what those men did in the massacre than I am burdened with Original Sin because Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Your theology may differ, but that's not my problem.
I am not interested in debating one isolated event, no matter how heinous. Christ died to atone for our sins...ALL of them. If we recognize our mistakes, turn from them and repent, the Lord will forgive. That's the essence of the Good News of the Gospel. Suppose that Brigham young personally fired every one of the shots that killed those travelers (a statement which we know to be false). We know from his actions before and after the event, that this was an aberration. Something happened which caused some people to react horribly in the heat of the moment, but once the act was done, the church as a whole, including the First Presidency, said, "This is not who we are. This is not how we want to be known. This is not how we're going to act. Nothing like this is EVER to happen again, is that clear?" And nothing like it ever did. They turned from their sins and repented and forsook them. Isn't that what we're all supposed to do? And didn't Jesus Christ himself say something like you're supposed to forgive seventy times seven? This was ONE. One very bad thing, but just one. Elsewhere, it says, "I the Lord will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men." In Matthew 6:15 He says "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
And what has the Church done since then? Led a campaign of murder and oppression? No, we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and man hours in humanitarian service. We offer our truth to the world without coercion. If someone wants to leave the church, we're sorry to see them go, but we don't kidnap them, hold them against their wills and forbid them to communicate with family members. We let them go, with our love, and occasionally reach out to say that the door is still open if they wish to return. I know from real experience and experimentation in my own life that in the church is where happiness and spiritual growth lies for me. This is not some passing whim, or a faith that can be shaken by hearing any "shocking" story about how another human being made a mistake.
I have journals from people in my own family describing they joy they felt when they found the early church and recognized the truth that their fathers had been searching for for generations. I have read how they moved again and again to escape mobs and other violent persecution. I've read to the end, where the handwriting changes and another family member wrote of how my something Great Grandfather died of one of the rampant diseases at Winter Quarters. They, and all the generations since then have studied and prayed and believed with all their hearts. So don't presume to teach me my own family and cultural history with a book designed to defame a great man and continue the persecution that has been heaped upon us for more than a hundred and fifty years. Don't fall into Satan's trap and continue the persecution yourself. Give me the right to believe what I believe, and I'll do the same for you.
Since I won't be coming back to this thread, I just want to point out that it has been categorically stated several times in General Conference that no man or woman who does not have the chance to be married in the temple in this life will lose any blessings in eternity because of it. If they keep the covenants they make, they will have all the blessings anybody else does. That includes those who do not have access to a temple, those who never met the right person, and those who can't bear children for any reason. Those who have the chance, but choose not to take it are a different matter. Who is to say who was given a fair chance? Only God at the judgment bar.
As for Matt 22:30, Jesus essentially said, "I'm not going to dignify your question with an answer because you're not asking for the sake of knowing, but only because you think it'll trip me up. Under the Law of Moses, in the Old Testament, there is no ordinance for eternal marriage. Stop worrying about what happens to dead people and take a look at what you're doing while you're alive." Now, because the Law of Moses was a preparatory gospel, and doesn't include several of the ordinances we consider necessary for salvation, there are a lot of people whose fate seems uncertain. We've been told not to worry about them, that God is just and merciful, and that however it works out in Heaven, we'll all be happy with the arrangement.
And now, I'm going to sign off. You may have holes to poke in what I've said, but really, I don't care. You're not asking these questions for the sake of understanding, but just to get a reaction and try to tangle us up in our words. So, since Jesus felt good about saying it, I do too. I'm not going to dignify this discussion with any more response.