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Messages - origamikaren

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1
Rants and Stuff / Re: General Religious discussion
« on: July 10, 2009, 06:58:44 AM »
I really shouldn't be doing this, but I'm going to post again in hopes that getting things off my chest will allow me to stop obsessing about this thread. If anybody feels offended by what I'm about to say, then chalk it up to my physical and mental exhaustion and sleep deprivation.  

My mental state for the last several days has been terrible.  I have been fighting a constant battle against anxiety and depression with obsessive tendencies for years, and this thread is making me lose ground at the moment.  I'm certainly losing sleep over it, and with an 18 month old, I can't afford that. During the last several days my mind has swung from one extreme of feverishly ruminating on the arguments I'd love to make, coming up with all sorts of really good analogies that I'm sure mtbikemom won't even acknowledge in her responses (For instance, does knowing that several of the founding fathers were less than exemplary in their personal lives, especially relating to the slaves they owned, make you want to renounce your citizenship and trash the constitution?), to the other extreme of complete lethargy so that I'm barely able to feed myself and my family.  This is what certain kinds of stress does to me, and I know the symptoms to know what I should do (cut off the source of stress completely), but lack the mental willpower (due to my illness) to accomplish it as quickly as I'd like.

Why won't I read the book?  Is it because I'm intellectually lazy and prefer ignorance to facing the truth? NO.  It's because I have more things to do with my life than humor the whims of every jerk with an axe to grind. I haven't had time to read Brandon's latest book, Warbreaker.  What makes you think I'm going to put that off to satisfy you? I don't watch Law and Order or CSI on TV because the constant focus on the negative brings me down.  I don't watch certain other shows because the commercials tell me that the content they're proudest of is offensive and degrading, and drives the Holy Spirit from my home.  I haven't read the Stephanie Meyer Vampire books because I've had a bad experience with what thinking about Vampires does to my mind, and people whose opinion I trust tell me they're a waste of time anyway. Am I physically lazy for not trying every new vitamin, pill, and antidepressant some pharmaceutical company tries to sell me?  Am I morally obligated to sample every bit of poison drug dealers peddle so that I can know that they're harmful?  I don't think so.  

I know, because I know myself, that reading this book won't make me happy.  I doubt there will be anything in it that is worse than my imagination can come up with.  But even if the worst parts of it are true, it still wouldn't shake my faith in the truthfulness of the Gospel, and the value of being a member of this Church.

According to my theology, each person is accountable for their own sins.  I am no more responsible for what those men did in the massacre than I am burdened with Original Sin because Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  Your theology may differ, but that's not my problem.

I am not interested in debating one isolated event, no matter how heinous.  Christ died to atone for our sins...ALL of them.  If we recognize our mistakes, turn from them and repent, the Lord will forgive.  That's the essence of the Good News of the Gospel.  Suppose that Brigham young personally fired every one of the shots that killed those travelers (a statement which we know to be false).  We know from his actions before and after the event, that this was an aberration.  Something happened which caused some people to react horribly in the heat of the moment, but once the act was done, the church as a whole, including the First Presidency, said, "This is not who we are. This is not how we want to be known. This is not how we're going to act.  Nothing like this is EVER to happen again, is that clear?"  And nothing like it ever did.  They turned from their sins and repented and forsook them.  Isn't that what we're all supposed to do?  And didn't Jesus Christ himself say something like you're supposed to forgive seventy times seven?  This was ONE.  One very bad thing, but just one.  Elsewhere, it says, "I the Lord will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men."   In Matthew 6:15 He says "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

And what has the Church done since then?  Led a campaign of murder and oppression?  No, we spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and man hours in humanitarian service.  We offer our truth to the world without coercion.  If someone wants to leave the church, we're sorry to see them go, but we don't kidnap them, hold them against their wills and forbid them to communicate with family members.  We let them go, with our love, and occasionally reach out to say that the door is still open if they wish to return.  I know from real experience and experimentation in my own life that in the church is where happiness and spiritual growth lies for me.  This is not some passing whim, or a faith that can be shaken by hearing any "shocking" story about how another human being made a mistake.

I have journals from people in my own family describing they joy they felt when they found the early church and recognized the truth that their fathers had been searching for for generations.  I have read how they moved again and again to escape mobs and other violent persecution.  I've read to the end, where the handwriting changes and another family member wrote of how my something Great Grandfather died of one of the rampant diseases at Winter Quarters. They, and all the generations since then have studied and prayed and believed with all their hearts. So don't presume to teach me my own family and cultural history with a book designed to defame a great man and continue the persecution that has been heaped upon us for more than a hundred and fifty years.  Don't fall into Satan's trap and continue the persecution yourself.  Give me the right to believe what I believe, and I'll do the same for you.  

Since I won't be coming back to this thread, I just want to point out that it has been categorically stated several times in General Conference that no man or woman who does not have the chance to be married in the temple in this life will lose any blessings in eternity because of it. If they keep the covenants they make, they will have all the blessings anybody else does.  That includes those who do not have access to a temple, those who never met the right person, and those who can't bear children for any reason.  Those who have the chance, but choose not to take it are a different matter.  Who is to say who was given a fair chance? Only God at the judgment bar.

As for Matt 22:30, Jesus essentially said, "I'm not going to dignify your question with an answer because you're not asking for the sake of knowing, but only because you think it'll trip me up.  Under the Law of Moses, in the Old Testament, there is no ordinance for eternal marriage. Stop worrying about what happens to dead people and take a look at what you're doing while you're alive."  Now, because the Law of Moses was a preparatory gospel, and doesn't include several of the ordinances we consider necessary for salvation, there are a lot of people whose fate seems uncertain.  We've been told not to worry about them, that God is just and merciful, and that however it works out in Heaven, we'll all be happy with the arrangement.

And now, I'm going to sign off.  You may have holes to poke in what I've said, but really, I don't care.  You're not asking these questions for the sake of understanding, but just to get a reaction and try to tangle us up in our words.  So, since Jesus felt good about saying it, I do too.  I'm not going to dignify this discussion with any more response.

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Rants and Stuff / Re: General Religious discussion
« on: July 08, 2009, 06:37:11 PM »
I composed a very long flaming post, but was thankfully interrupted by my daughter who wanted marshmallows and attention.  If this post doesn't convince you that I have done my research, and can still belong to the church in good conscience, I might be willing to explain myself better in a PM, but since I think you're just trolling at this point, you'd have to give me some pretty strong evidence that it would be worth my time to do so.

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I would so love to discuss some of the points that Mr. Bagley supports with primary sources from the LDS temple archives and personal interviews that had not been available to Mrs. Juanita Brooks.  His is the most impartial and well-researched account of the events that led up to and, most notably, the cover-up of the details of the massacre, as far as I can tell.  Refusing to read this book is akin to a Catholic refusing to believe that there have been problems with child molestation in the priesthood, despite all the evidence.  If I discovered that my church had lied in any point in their history, I would want to know and I would look elsewhere for spiritual authority if I decided it was true.

You're assuming that I don't already know about the Massacre and the possible involvement of church leaders at several levels.  My mother is a historian, and I have grown up learning about Mormon History all my life.  I don't need to read this particular book to know what your general problem is.  I have no interest in debating primary sources with you because the point is moot.

Let's assume for sake of discussion that Brigham Young was fully complicit. Sortitus  summarized my feelings quite well when he said that Brigham Young, as well as the others involved may have done some things that we question now, but they were human and so prone to make mistakes, and that's between them and their God. 

What else do you know about the history of the time?  These people had seen their children murdered, their aged parents driven from their homes and sent out to die in the cold.  They had been forced to abandon nearly everything they owned, and had endured years of privation and epidemic fatal illness, finally walking hundreds of miles while thy watched other members of their parties die of starvation exhaustion and exposure.  Now they had begun to scrape a living out of a piece of desert where local experts said they'd "pay a hundred dollars to see a single ear of corn grow" and they thought they were safe. 

Then they hear that some of the murderers they had fled have followed them west and were stirring up trouble (I know that the settlers had nothing to do with Parley's death, or any of the earlier mob activity, but that was not common knowledge or perception at the time).  Under those circumstances, I might have overreacted and made a terrible mistake as well.  As for the cover-up, the US army was on its way to harass the Church in SLC, and news of something like this could have tipped the precarious balance towards real violence there. 

I do not say that anyone involved made the right decision, but I don't think that debating who made what decision based on scanty sources from people who had good reason to lie will serve any good purpose now. I have plenty of primary sources from my own family history to document the atrocities that the early Mormons suffered, without anyone being held accountable before the law.

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BTW, no one has answered my question about how exactly one gets to the higher levels of heaven that you have described.   I am not baiting you here, I truly do not know.  And are women given the same eternal inheritance, according to your Mormon scriptures, as men?  Co-inheritors?   

I did answer the question when I talked about Faith, Repentance, Baptism, and Receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost as well as other Temple ordinances including being Sealed to your family in the temple (Eternal Marriage).

Our Church teaches that men and women are equal in the sight of the Lord.  It does not teach that men and women are the same.  I am just as important to my Heavenly Father as any man, but I do not have the same responsibilities here on Earth.  I believe that my responsibilities for bearing and rearing children, teaching the gospel to my family and making sure that each of them is truly converted, and caring for the sick and afflicted both within my home and in the community at large are just as important as any Priesthood responsibilities.  I believe, and our Church teaches, that something analogous will happen in Heaven.  Again, I can go into specifics if you want to see evidence from the scriptures and from modern prophets, but I'm pretty much done with this discussion as it's currently tending.

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They will just go with less treasure, which we are told we can build up while on the earth.
And you have a problem with the idea that works can get you a better place in Heaven?

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Rants and Stuff / Re: General Religious discussion
« on: July 07, 2009, 09:30:43 PM »
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This is a valid point, but I think there is a difference with comparing the life of Brigham Young, probably the second-most well-known Mormon leader after Joseph Smith, with the lives of Popes and kings  whom most Christians would not identify with at all and with whom many Christians might say were not born again.
In addition, I find your statement that the Holocaust was committed in the name of Christianity utterly disgusting. And I know what Hitler said about the Jews being to blame for killing Jesus.

Reaves, I meant that to be utterly disgusting.  That's how I feel about people judging me and my religion by one small group of people whose actions don't represent me or my beliefs. I don't believe that the Holocaust was committed in the name of true Christianity. Since I claim to be a Christian, I feel that I have inherited as much from the political and military history of Christianity as any Catholic or Protestant.  To me, that history is a warning that blind devotion can go too far.  It's also one of the main reasons for our Article of Faith #11: We claim the privelege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all men the same privledge let them worship how where or what they may.



4
Rants and Stuff / Re: General Religious discussion
« on: July 07, 2009, 04:42:31 AM »
Since mtbikemom keeps harping on the Blood of the Prophets book, I decided to look it up and see what it's about. The subtitle told me all I needed to know: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows.  Here is a quote from the top Amazon review:
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Bagley is subject to criticism because much of any account of the massacre is simply "interpretation". Bagley chooses to interpret evidence to blame church leaders. In fact, the evidence may be capable of different interpretations. Perhaps, Bagley doesn't give Brigham Young enough credit for the letter he sent to the Southern Utah communities instructing them to leave the pioneers alone. (which somehow arrived just a day or two too late to prevent he massacre). Also, its difficult to rely on much of anything John D. Lee said. Lee wrote and said many contradictory things about the massacre. Additionally, his statements may have been motivated by a desire to escape criminal responsibility for his acts. Much of the other evidence in the book is both dated and circumstantial.

However, if there is a conclusion that can be drawn from the book it is this. The true and complete story of the massacre has never been told. Obviously, there is much more to it than has ever been explained. That the church participated in a coverup of the events cannot be denied. And, one has to ask why, if no one "higher up" had any culpability for what occurred.

I find it interesting that so many people focus on this one act of violence.  There is no denying that it happened, that more people were guilty than were charged criminally for the crime, and that it was a very bad thing that they did.  However, it is the ONLY time the early Church members did anything like it.  Never before (when they were being massacred in Missouri and at Haun's Mill) or since (when the United States government was systematically hunting down and imprisoning church leaders) has any church leader advocated violence against the very real enemies of the Church.  Those that were involved in Mt. Meadows did and will pay a spiritual price for their actions, and will not escape the judgment of God for their actions without sufficient repentance (and what is "sufficient" is up to God). Nobody know what Brigham Young did or did not do or think about the subject, except for the very scant evidence which is subject to interpretation.  We do know that he made it clear afterwords that the massacre was the wrong decision, and nothing like it was to happen again.  And nothing ever did.

Compare that with the history of the Crusades, the Pogroms, and the hundreds of years of wars, rape and pillage in Europe all in the name of spreading true Christianity, not to mention the Holocaust, and I think that our fruits speak pretty well.

There are several "special things" that one must do in order to reach the highest degree of glory in heaven.  First, is to have Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Second is Repentance. Third is Baptism (by someone with the proper priesthood authority) by Immersion for the Remission of Sins. Fourth is the Laying on of Hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost.  (see http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1/4#4)  All of these are things that Christ told his followers in the Early Christian Church to do, so we believe that in doing them, we are following Christ.

These four things happen in the process of joining the LDS Church.  After that, one must endure to the end, continually repenting and striving toward perfection, always doing your best to grow towards being more like Jesus.  There are other ordinances in the Temple, including being married and sealed to your family, that are also necessary if you want to have the eternal family that we believe makes Heaven such a nice place.

The lake of fire may be either real or a metaphor.  It really doesn't matter which, because the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth are very real.  If a person rejects the atonement of Christ, they will suffer for their own sins, and that will not be a good thing. Where Mormons disagree with some other religions is whether there is a chance to accept Christ as your personal savior and receive the necessary ordinances after you've died.  We believe that there is.   (see http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1/2-3#2)

As for disagreements between the Bible and our other scriptures, we believe that there are far fewer points of contention than you make out.  We do believe that not all of the gospel was revealed to the people in the Bible, and that not all that was revealed was written down.  We believe that in some specific instances (such as when Moses came down from Mt. Sinai and found the Israelites worshiping idols) the Lord took away the higher law and gave the people something that they could understand better.  We believe that through the centuries the Bible text has been changed both by innocent errors in translation and transcription, and by deliberate means (such as at some synod or other which I can't be bothered to look up right now).  The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible highlights some of these errors, and interprets some passages where the meanings of words have changed over time, but it was not completed, and is not exhaustive.  We believe that the Bible is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly, but we don't believe that it is His last and final word.  We believe that as society and technology changes, specific church programs and traditions may need to change, but the principles they are based on do not change.  The Bible  has very little to say about internet pornography for instance, and modern revelation is needed to help us fight this new threat.  (see http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1/8-9#8)

As for which source trumps another, it really doesn't come up that often.We treat the Standard Works (Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price) as scripture, and where there is apparent conflict, it's often the case that an older work is simply clarified expanded or explained by a newer work, and when you understand what each is saying, there is no conflict at all.  We believe that the statements of modern prophets and other Church Leaders during General Conference are as close as you can get to scripture without being officially canonized (though occasionally, there will be edits made between the talk given and the published version if there are doctrinal errors). Where these disagree with the scriptures it's often on a matter of current Church programs or cultural traditions (like wearing prayer shawls or having women cover their heads). Other statements by the General Authorities may be intended only for a specific group of people, or in the context of other talks given at the same meeting, so we're asked not to transcribe and pass around what was said in Stake and Regional Conferences.  Sometimes, when General Authorities are speaking in an unofficial context, they say things that are simply opinion, and as humans, we can all make mistakes.  That's why we don't claim that our General Authorities are infallible (like the Pope).




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Rants and Stuff / Re: General Religious discussion
« on: June 19, 2009, 08:16:31 AM »
I've been on vacation for a week.  Looks like things are moving along here.

Back on page 12, Writerinage said (referring, I believe to my post on the afterlife and the possibility of Eternal Progression, and forgiveness of sin after death):
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Your thoughts on a loving God who doesn't not create sinners and then punish them are beautiful... but your lovely personal sentiment is not backed up by christian doctrine, the bible, or even the book of Mormon.
 

I've been thinking about how to answer this, because I think it's very important to point out that this is not just "my lovely sentiment."  This is fundamental Church doctrine, as preached by our prophets, and backed up by scripture.   

My brother recently did a short post about our doctrine on his blog, and has some good quotes to back it up.

I was talking to my mom today about this thread (mostly how interesting it is to have an intelligent rational discussion with people who really want to understand the other point of view), and found myself articulating the reason why it's been so hard coming up with an adequate response.

Latter Day Saints believe that we were sent to earth to try to become more like God.  We were to be tested to see who would do the best they could with what they'd been given, and who would be decieved, take the easy way out, or just plain rebel (Think of Christ's Parable of the talents in the New Testament) Those who passed the test would be given more responsibilities, and more opportunities to learn and grow until they became like God, having all that he has.  If you have a view of the afterlife that includes Eternal Progression, active work, and a purpose to continue existing, then you can begin to see the reasons for so many of the commandments and prophetic counsel that others see as so restricting. If you don't believe in such an afterlife, then the commandments could easily seem like "a tool to keep the masses in line."  What's the point of exercising such self control, if your reward is to sit around on a cloud playing a harp as an asexual being, or even worse, if you cease to exist altogether? By twisting and hiding this one small bit of doctrine in the Bible as it was copied and translated, and in traditional Christian theology, Satan has done an enormous amount of damage to the gospel as most people learn it -- without that crucial piece, large portions of it simply don't make sense, and very rational people have a hard time reconciling the conflicting bits.

There have been a lot of questions asked about the Mormon view of Heaven and Hell.  Some of that discussion has moved into PM's, but Ookla asked me to address it a little in this post, since that's what I'm talking about anyway.

Before we were born, we (human beings) were all spirits living with our Father/Creator (God) in the spirit world. In order to help us progress, God the Father directed his firstborn spirit son Jesus to create the Earth and everything on it (pretty much as described in Genesis). When we come to Earth, our spirit gets a mortal body, and together these two are the "soul." When we die, we leave the body behind, and we're spirits again, in the spirit world.  In this spirit world, there are two states -- paradise (for the people who were good) and spirit prison (for the people who weren't).  We don't know if these are two separate places, or just two different states of mind, but we do know that there will be communication between the two groups, and those in prison will be taught about the plan of salvation and how Jesus died for our sins, and they will be given a chance to accept Him as their personal Savior, and be set free.  Baptism is a part of this process, and if they weren't baptised in mortality, someone will have to be baptised for them by proxy, and then they will have to accept that ordinance in order for it to have any effect.

At some point in time, Christ will come again, the world will end, and there will be a final judgement.  Everyone who was ever born will get ressurected and recieve their bodies again (in this way, Jesus saves everyone from physical death -- the separation of the body and spirit which make up the soul).  Those that accept Christ as the Redeemer will have their sins forgiven, and can live with Him and the Father (Thus He saves some people from spiritual death, or our separation form God). Those who won't accept Christ's suffering for their sins, will suffer for their own sins. This is known as being "damned" or having your forward progress stopped. There are three main, and many finer gradations of eternal reward/punishment. Section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants talks more about the final judgement and what you have to do to qualify for each of the kingdoms, and what they will be like. Essentially, if you're the kind of person in this life who would reject Christ's plan or refuse to live the way you know you should because it's just too much work, then you'll be the same sort of person in the next life, and you won't want to do what it takes to go to one of the higher kingdoms.

Hell, in our theology, can refer to a few different things.  The most obvious is the spirit prison which exists between death and the final judgement.  In this case, the "everlasting and eternal" adjectives that have been applied to it in scripture are a sort of play on words by God because he is everlasting and eternal, whatever punishment he chooses to dole out will be everlasting and eternal punishment (see D&c 19 -- a chapter that explains a lot of what I'm saying here).  Hell can also refer to the "outer darkness" that is reserved for those who knew without a shadow af a doubt that Christ was the Son of God, and yet betrayed that knowledge and worked against His kingdom. Hell can also refer to the "telestial kingdom" which is one of the three degrees of glory (see D&C 76).  I don't have a citation handy, but we've been told that if we knew how great even this lowest of the kingdoms is, we'd kill ourselves to get there, and yet the highest, or Celestial Kingdom is amazingly better even than that. 

Most of my refrences so far have been to the Doctrine and Covenants, a compilation of revelations received by Joseph Smith and subsequent Prophets. If you read them, you'll find that they really describe the torments of Hell as a state of mind of knowing that you're guilty, and that you could have had so much more if you'd only been willing to do what it takes (believe, keep the commandments, etc). If you want a source in the Book of Mormon for this view of hell and the afterlife, read about the experience of Alma the Younger while he was in a coma-like state after being rebuked by the angel. Alma 36 (Oh, and sorry about all the footnote letters scattered in there -- if you want to read a clearer copy, click on the link)
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  5 Now, behold, I say unto you, if I had not been aborn of God I should bnot have known these things; but God has, by the mouth of his holy cangel, made these things known unto me, not of any dworthiness of myself;
  6 For I went about with the sons of Mosiah, seeking to adestroy the church of God; but behold, God sent his holy angel to stop us by the way.
  7 And behold, he spake unto us, as it were the voice of thunder, and the whole earth did atremble beneath our feet; and we all fell to the earth, for the bfear of the Lord came upon us.
  8 But behold, the voice said unto me: Arise. And I arose and stood up, and beheld the angel.
  9 And he said unto me: If thou wilt of thyself be destroyed, seek no more to destroy the church of God.
  10 And it came to pass that I fell to the earth; and it was for the space of athree days and three nights that I could not open my mouth, neither had I the use of my limbs.
  11 And the angel spake more things unto me, which were heard by my brethren, but I did anot hear them; for when I heard the words—If thou wilt be destroyed of thyself, seek no more to destroy the church of God—I was struck with such great fear and amazement lest perhaps I should be destroyed, that I fell to the earth and I did hear no more.
  12 But I was racked with aeternal btorment, for my soul was charrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.
  13 Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was atormented with the bpains of hell; yea, I saw that I had crebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments.
  14 Yea, and I had amurdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.
  15 Oh, thought I, that I acould be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my bdeeds.
  16 And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the apains of a bdamned soul.
  17 And it came to pass that as I was thus aracked with torment, while I was bharrowed up by the cmemory of my many sins, behold, I dremembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.
  18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, ahave mercy on me, who am bin the cgall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting dchains of edeath.
  19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my apains bno more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.
  20 And oh, what ajoy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!
  21 Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy.
  22 Yea, methought I saw, even as our father aLehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and bpraising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there.
  23 But behold, my limbs did receive their astrength again, and I stood upon my feet, and did manifest unto the people that I had been bborn of God.
  24 Yea, and from that time even until now, I have labored without ceasing, that I might bring souls unto arepentance; that I might bring them to btaste of the exceeding joy of which I did taste; that they might also be cborn of God, and be dfilled with the Holy Ghost.


In the scripture below, Zeezrom realizes the damage his lies have caused and starts to feel the chains of Hell Alma 14:6
  6 And it came to pass that Zeezrom was astonished at the words which had been spoken; and he also knew concerning the blindness of the minds, which he had caused among the people by his lying words; and his soul began to be harrowed up under a consciousness of his own guilt; yea, he began to be encircled about by the pains of hell.


In another chapter, (Alma 5), Alma talks to a group of people -- the children and grandchildren of converts -- about how their fathers had been saved from Hell by believing in Christ.  Again, Hell is equated with feeling the guilt of the sins they committed, and with chains that are holding them captive so that they can't progress.  To be released from these chains, they had to accept Christ and his Atonement for their sins, and become born again through Him. In this sermon, the goal at the judgement day is to have His image in our countenances -- in other words to do all we can in this life to become like Him.

Quote from: Champion Kaz on June 18, 2009, 04:07:53 PM
Wow you have the Bene Gesserit litany against fear as your signature.... that takes up alot of space....

As a side note, I used to chant this as an exercise in "Rational Emotive Imaging" to cure myself of a paralyzing fear of the dark and parking lots.

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Rants and Stuff / Re: General Religious discussion
« on: June 08, 2009, 07:21:58 AM »
I'd like to point out for tone purposes that when I use the word "you," I'm referring to people in genral, and not a specific person. Please don't read this as confrontational -- just explaining things that don't seem clear yet.

I could definitely debate any of the things on your list of general problems with religions (I see that Epistemological did a good job of covering the most important of the points). without going through point by point, just know that none of them are things that I see as real problems in my life as a member of this church. Most of them are due to perversions of the true doctrines of the gospel.  I had a religion teacher once who would often draw a continuum on the chalkboard -- whatever doctrine we were talking about, he would put in the center, and then show how even slightly pushing it towards one extreme or another in any direction can make it opressive or even a sin. Satan has been able to skew almost everything in mainstream religion -- sometimes just a little bit, and sometimes a lot -- to distort it as you've pointed out.  Some of that (OK, often much of it) even creeps into the day to day practices of the LDS church because, though the gospel may be perfect, the people trying to put it into practice are not.  One of the things that the Prophet and General Authorities do a lot of in our church is to watch for those shifting winds and try to direct the membership back towards the true doctrine.

Regarding the health effects of the Word of Wisdom, the real issue here is free will.  Satan's plan is to take away free will so that he will have all the power and glory.  The Father's plan is to give us free will so that we can make the most of ourselves. The reason we're counselled against many sins is that when we do them, the natural consequences limit our free will in the future. (disease, unwanted pregnancy, prison, trying to remember all the lies, less money and time to spend living happily and doing good, etc...) It doesn't make sense to knowingly surrender your free will to an addictive substance.

I agree that overindulging (or underindulging which is something I struggle with) in food is as much of a problem as overinidulging in drugs or alcohol. Obese Mormons who overindulge in food aren't really living the Word of Wisdom. It's not something that automatically keeps you out of the temple, but it does affect your ability to serve, and to feel and act on the promptings of the spirit.  I've seen a much greater focus lately from church leaders trying to address this on an individual level -- though not necessarily across the pulpit.  The real difference between food and alcohol or tobacco, is that they are addictive substances, and when under their influence, you really can't feel the spirit at all, or have the mental capacity to make wise choices about other things.  Far too many people have started out drinking "just a moderate amount" and really regretted something the next morning.  Then there are the millions who can't break the chains of cigarette smoking or alcoholism even if they try. My family history suggests that if I was to start, I would quickly become addicted with unfortunate results.  That's not a risk I'm willing to take for a little relaxation when a little TV will usually get me as relaxed as I want to be.

With tithing, the question is: not how much money are you giving the church, but are you willing to trust God?  He has promised that if you follow his commandments (and tithing is even a Biblical one), he will "open up the windows of heaven so that there will not be room to receive it." If you can't trust him with an affordable percentage of your worldly goods, then you certainly don't have the commitment necessary to keep the covenants made in the temple. And before you argue that 10% is not affordable for some people, know that if tithing means the difference between eating or paying rent or something like that, then your Bishop has the authority to help with those necessities out of the welfare funds.  I have never met a single person who feels poorer for paying a full and honest tithe.

As for the "patriarchal order" and the priesthood, I think that as with many things, God knew human nature, and designed the church and the gospel to take advantage of our strengths and shore up our weaknesses.  If you simply take a look at the trends in churches where they have given women the priesthood, you'll see that the already skewed demographic tilts even further.  Even in the LDS church, there are more active women than men.  If you tell men that we don't really need them in the leadership and serice positions they hold, then they won't feel like they have a place in the kingdom of God.  This is not the only reason for the policy of course. There is truth in many of the things that you claim are said just to "pacify" the women. When the programs of the church are run as the Prophet has counselled (and there have been specific leadership trainings directly from Salt Lake on the topic -- which tells you that the programs are not always run perfectly), no woman has to feel like she's minimized or opressed or lacks responsibilities or a voice in this church.   

I know that there have been doctrinal questions addressed in PM's in the last few days.  Did they answer all of the questions people asked about my post on the afterlife, hell and forgiveness for sinners? I'd be happy to go searching for specific refrences in the scriptures if they haven't.

7
Rants and Stuff / Re: General Religious discussion
« on: June 05, 2009, 05:19:48 AM »
Just one more note -- I don't know why you didn't receive a confirmation of the Book of Mormon.  It is, of course, possible that you "did it wrong" as somebody implied to you at the time.  It's also possile that other things going on in your life made it difficult for you to recognize or accept those feelings.  It's also possible that God expected you to think about it a little more deeply.  It's also possible that it wasn't the right time.  There are lots of possibilities. I certainly don't know -- I wasn't there and don't have enough information to judge you, your efforts, or your intentions.  Nobody but God can judge that sort of thing, and those who made a judgement about you were wrong to do so.

I don't know you or your situation well enough to tell you how to get the conditions right to feel the spirit, but I will say once again, that you should continue doing things that you have found bring you true happiness, and be open to the idea that there may be things in your life that you can change to become a better person (as there are for all of us, including me).  If you keep striving to have a relationship with God, and become a better person all the time, I believe He will direct you to the places where you can find the understanding you (like most people, including me) are looking for.

8
Rants and Stuff / Re: General Religious discussion
« on: June 05, 2009, 04:40:16 AM »
I think we have very little disagreement about the fundamentals here.  It sounds to me like you have done some "experimenting on the word" in your search for fundamental truths that lead to happiness, and you have found some that have borne good fruit. I think that if you continue to honestly search for truth, and doing good for the sake of doing good, then you will be just fine in the afterlife.

I've gone through quite a few periods in my life when I've honestly wondered, "What if it's all a lie?  What if there is no afterlife, or my church has it all wrong?" Being of a logical and scientific turn of mind, I then said, "OK, take the hypothesis that there is no afterlife, what would you do differently her and now?"  I asked myself if I'd wear different clothes, date different people. Would I eat differently? Smoke cigarettes? Get drunk every evening like my next door neighbors do? Steal? Have sex outside of marriage?

I looked at even the most glamorous representations of many of these behaviors, and found that they didn't look like they led to happiness. The drunken parties my neighbors throw every night don't even look like they're fun before they often turn into screaming matches, and most of the people who hang out there don't seem to have stable jobs, homes, families, or even relationships.

I also saw that being a member of the Church gave me a safety net for many of the areas that I'd fall down in my life alone.  I know that I'll have a whole crowd of people happy to meet me and be my new friends when I move someplace new (it's still hard for me to socialize, but at least I have a starting place). There are opportunities to serve others, learn from people who've been through my stage of life and beyond, and share my own talents.  I don't have to worry that my donations to humanitarian causes are being spent on executives with huge salaries and expensive infomercials.  The list goes on and on.

Then I considered that if in every area I could reasonably test in this life, living the gospel made me happier than not, then there might also be truth in the places I couldn't test -- and even if there's not, it really isn't that hard for me to do the little extras. That's what makes it worth it for me.  I have had spiritual experiences, but they are somehow easy to dismiss or forget in the tough times.  during those times, my logic keeps me on the straight and narrow until I can feel His hand in my life again (and I always have felt Him again).

As for a loving God creating us then waiting to punish us, I don't think that's how it works at all.  I have an 18 month old daughter, and I love her and want the best for her.  I make rules about what she can eat (not too many sweets), and when she has to sleep, and what she can play with (she's not allowed to dance with my sharp scissors).  There are times when she gets into something I don't want her to, and she gets upset when I take it away.  When she gets older, I'll make rules based on my greater experience, and if she deliberately breaks them, there will be consequences for her actions.  I may have to punish her for small (in the grand scheme of things) disobediences in order to keep her from heading down a path that I know will lead to unhappiness (for instance, I don't think that drug use or teen sex can ever be a recipe for happiness, so I'll do my best to make sure she has good friends and stays out of dangerous situations).  I will never be so angry at her that I'll stop loving her, even if she makes some decisions that disappoint me or make me sad.  I know that school and college will be difficult at times, but I'll send her anyway, because I know that she can't grow up to be a competent adult if I lock her in the house all the time.  I could be said to be her creator -- almost every bit of her physical body was once a part of me, but there was something eternal -- some personality -- that I just made a home for.

I think that this is exactly the way God feels about us, only his love and experience are infinitely greater than ours.  I believe that he created our spirits (and also the world we live on and therefore our bodies), but that He had some kind of material to start from -- some part of our personality that is eternal even beyond God.  He sent us to earth to gain the experience we'd need to become all that we can be in the eternities -- and I believe that we will be working, progressing, and creating in the afterlife.  He knew that it would be hard, and that not all of us would live up to our full potential, but He also knew that if we didn't experience mortality, none of us could progress much further than we had already.  I believe that He wants to do everything in His power to help us succeed.  I believe the only real "punishment" in store is having to look in His loving face and see the sad look of disappointment there.  I believe that it will be so painful to those who willfully rebelled that they won't want to be near Him, and so will not be able to dwell in His presence, and the eternal soul wrenching guilt of knowing what you could have been if you'd only done as He asked.  I believe that anyone who sincerely wants to do good and be the best they can be, will have an opportunity to do so either in this life or the next.  I believe that the better we can become in this life, the easier it will be to keep moving forward in the next, but that He'll give us all the chances we need as long as we're sincerely doing the best with what we have (As for what "Sincerely doing you best" entails -- only God can judge that).

As for happiness versus cheap thrills, think of a drug addict.  He gets cheap thrills, but very little real happiness as he destroys his relationships, his health, his career, and ultimately his whole life in search of more drugs.  If your faith in God leads you to a religion that teaches you not to waste your time, money, etc on addictive substances, then following that religion will keep you from doing things that will certainly make you unhappy, and encourage you to do things that will make you happy, even if they're not all as obvious as not doing drugs.

9
Rants and Stuff / Re: General Religious discussion
« on: June 04, 2009, 05:29:03 AM »
Ookla says that if I want to respond to this thread, I should do it myself rather than making him type it like I did last night. 

Writerainge: I pretty much agree with what Frog said about revelation. 

We have a prophet who receives revelation for and speaks to the whole church for a couple of reasons, none of which is to have somebody who we believe is infallible and who we should follow blindly.  Reason 1: God's house is a house of order, and if there wasn't somebody in charge, and an established chain of command, there would be chaos.  Reason 2: We believe most revelation comes from when a person has a question, and asks God for an answer.  Each member in the church is entitled to receive revelation for him/herself and for their area of responsibility.  If it's my calling to teach a class of 7 year olds, I'm mostly going to be thinking and praying about how to get that group of seven year olds ready to be baptized at age 8 (by making sure they know how to tell right from wrong, and understand repentance, and Christ's role in the atonement) rather than thinking about the growing problems of internet pornography, and how to make sure Church programs work for people all over the world (and not just in Utah).

When the Prophet says something new, each member is encouraged to think about it, study the issue, and ask God for a confirmation that it's true.  Sometimes, we have to trust that the Prophet knows what he's talking about, and give it a try for a while to see if it makes our lives better (If you want a great scripture reference for this, read Alma chapter 32 in the Book of Mormon, where he encourages the people to "experiment on the word")http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/32. 

A recent time when I did this was when our church leaders asked us to be active in the campaign for Prop 8 in California (and if you need to debate the issues in that campaign again, please start a new thread rather than discussing it in this one).  It was a very difficult thing to ask, because many of us have a live and let live attitude (see the 11th Article of Faith http://scriptures.lds.org/en/a_of_f/1) and didn't want to hurt the people who felt strongly in the other direction.  Once I started working on the campaign, it was VERY difficult to continue because of the really horrible things people were saying to me.  Yet, because I had prayed about the matter, I knew in my heart that I was doing what God wanted me to do, and I know that I have been blessed with stronger faith because of the experience.  I came to see that we were asked to participate in the campaign not because it would likely keep any current Homosexual couple from doing whatever they wanted, but because we needed to assert our right to have an opinion on moral issues and vote our conscience, and that those rights were under VERY HEAVY attack.

So the Prophet receives revelation about what the general membership of the Church ought to be thinking about, focusing their energy on, and asking for revelation about in their lives.  This doesn't stop anyone from asking for revelation about their specific issues. The doctrines of the gospel give wide latitude (within some strict parameters) for each person to decide between himself and the Lord what is the right thing for him to do in any situation.  I believe this is referred to in the New Testament as "Christian Liberty" (OK, in looking for a citation, I see that Paul never used that term, but the topic I'm thinking about is in 1 Cor chapter 8) http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_cor/8/9#9

As the Church has matured, there have been many times when the programs have changed to better meet the needs of the people.  There have also been a few times when the Lord, through revelation to His Prophet, has released the Church from the responsibility of obeying certain commandments because it wasn't really possible to do so (for example, we're not expected to live the United Order/Law of Consecration/Having All Things in Common like the New Testament saints or the early Mormon saints tried to, because it doesn't work within the larger economy unless everyone is equally committed, and that's impossible.) The underlying doctrines of the church have NOT changed, however, and we are still asked to commit everything we have and all our time and talents to the building up of the kingdom of God on Earth.

So no, our logic does not require anyone to take our word for anything.  Each person who is truly humble and asks God to help him know the truth, intending to act on the truth once he knows it, WILL receive an answer, a revelation, a witness for himself.  This revelation will probably not be an angelic visitation, but it will be clear enough confirmation, that the person receiving it won't doubt what he's experienced. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/10/4#4

10
Rants and Stuff / Re: Teaching racism
« on: April 29, 2009, 06:04:36 AM »
I have certainly seen first hand how parents teach their children to be racist and rude.  It's a disturbing sight...you have to be carefully taught as the saying goes.

On the other hand, this could all be a misunderstanding.  The kid was about four, and four year olds haven't learned to filter what comes out of their mouths -- or what goes into their brains.  I wasn't there to hear what the kid said, but imagine with me this scenario:

A little boy sees somebody making racist comments on TV or in a movie while over at a friend's house.  He might have some African American neighbors with mean dogs (I've had neighbors with mean dogs, and that fact alone made them seem scary and crazy to me.  I've also had neighbors who regularly yell obsecenities at each other beginning before 7 AM).

He's just come to the age when he's figuring out that boys and girls are different, and that boys grow up to be men who get married to girls who grow up to be women, and then they'll be mommies and daddies.  This is a fascinating subject to kids this age, and they often say they'll get married to some little girl they know when they grow up -- or to their sister or mom.  This is a natural stage of child development.

Then, maybe he meets an African American woman somewhere -- perhaps at the grocery store -- and doesn't like the way she smells because she's wearing some strong perfume. He tells his mom he doesn't want to marry her when he grows up, and his mom says, "Ok, you don't have to."  She may also support his idea that those particular neighbors aren't allowed to come over to his house for entirely non-racist reasons.

All these things are floating around in his head, and he makes some overgeneralizations and statements with loaded words that he doesn't understand the power of (Have you ever heard a little kid who has picked up a swear word from somewhere and says it only because it gets a reaction from everyone he says it to?).  This is also  natural for his developmental stage.  Perhaps his mom hasn't heard him talking that way yet, or maybe she hasn't had time to sit down and explain just what might be considered offensive to other people, even if he doesn't mean it that way (I remember being amazed at some of the things my mom made me stop doing that I look back on now and feel terrible about). All you have to do is look in the back of any parenting magazine to see a whole list of horribly embarassing things that kids have said or done.

I wasn't there, so I can't be sure this is what happened, but I find this scenario much more plausible than that his mom (in Provo Utah) is teaching him that black people aren't allowed at his house because they smell.  Remember that young mothers here are mostly Mormons and/or married to BYU students -- those populations aren't known for being blatantly racist, but they're also very known for being kind of sheltered -- they might not know ANY black people except for the neighbors with the dogs.

Though I don't know what was up with this little kid, I do know that I've been on the other end of this kind of misunderstanding.  I was teaching a Hands-on-History class where each girl made a little cloth doll while I told stories about pioneers.  I had made body parts for these dolls from seventeen different colors of fabric from pure black to pure white with every shade of brown, peach, and beige in between. When one of the African American girls chose the pure black, one of the other girls smugly said that black people weren't really black and made the first girl feel stupid for choosing that color.  To make her feel better, I told the girls that there are indeed some people with skin that is so dark it's black almost bordering on blue (for instance, a guy I know from Africa). I also said that everybody was allowed to make their doll however they wanted, and it was nobody else's business.  The girls each chose and sewed on the button eyes, yarn hair, and pioneer dress for their dolls. This was the first sewing experience for many of the 9 or 10 year old girls, and their dolls looked like a child had made them, as they should. 

When the little girl proudly showed her dad the doll she had worked so hard on, with its button eyes kind of crooked, and the curly black yarn hair sticking out at odd angles, he tore it from her hands and stormed into the museum.  He cornered me and was yelling about how I was a horrible person for teaching racial stereotypes, and that his daughter said that I thought black people looked like this doll (which, I now realize, did kind of look like a pickaninny of sorts).  I felt physically threatened by him, and took refuge in another room while my boss dealt with him, but it took me several hours to calm down and feel safe again.

So yeah, the boy at the park might have been carefully taught to exclude smelly black people, but it's just as possible that he hasn't yet been carefully taught to be kind, sensitive, and inclusive yet.

11
Rants and Stuff / Re: What!? I can't believe her/him!!!
« on: September 19, 2008, 05:35:14 AM »
Same-gender attraction is a very thorny issue in the church as well as outside it. According to the church's official statement on the subject, there may well be genetic or inborn predisposition, as there may be genetic or inborn predisposition to do other things that are considered sins as well. That does not change the fact that each person has a choice about his or her behavior. This person is probably getting pressured by his ecclesiastical leaders and/or family to choose a lifestyle that is not what they see as sinful. Remember, the attraction is not sinful, only acting on it, just as men being attracted to women is not sinful, but acting on it outside of marriage is.

The statement also says that “Marriage should not be viewed as a therapeutic step to solve problems such as homosexual inclinations or practices.” At the same time, your friend may be trying to see whether he can have a meaningful relationship with a person of the opposite gender before committing to marriage or deciding against it.

As for the whole "moving on" issue, people are sometime jerks. He is obviously very conflicted and doesn't really know what he wants. He feels guilty for dating you and guilty dating this girl, and misery loves company. Yes, you have a right to feel mad, just like anybody going through a tough breakup does. But the sooner you can forgive and get over it, the happier you will be, no matter what he does with his life.

12
Brandon Sanderson / Re: I WANNA!!! . . . .
« on: August 22, 2008, 12:47:29 AM »
Honestly, he takes great pleasure in playing with your heads.  Sometimes he's so gleeful about a particularly clever bit of teasing that he just has to call me over and show me what he did.  Oh, and he often will tell me things like, "somebody in one of the threads has totally figured everything out, but they're not advocating the idea like they believe it--I think they only said it as a joke."  I don't want any spoilers, so I just don't ask. (I've been an alpha reader since I married him, but not for any of the stuff that was written before)



13
Brandon Sanderson / Re: I WANNA!!! . . . .
« on: August 21, 2008, 02:25:17 AM »
I actually have a cake recipe without sugar that I make for Ookla's birthday...but he doesn't go to the store very often.

Umm... I don't know what your problem is with the way he talks.  I understand him perfectly.  His obfuscations are really just more of a cant or argot -- meant to confuse non locals... ;)


-Mrs. Mok

14
Writing Group / NaNoWriMo 2007
« on: October 13, 2007, 05:52:36 PM »
So I'm gearing up for NaNoWriMo 2007.  Is anybody else here going to be participating this year?  I'd like to add people to my buddy list and compare wordcounts, suggestions, etc.  I'll be using the name origamikaren there, too
http://www.nanowrimo.org/eng/user/204954


Good luck!

15
Brandon Sanderson / Alcatraz Fan Art
« on: October 10, 2007, 05:00:14 AM »
When I went to visit my brother and his family this past weekend, I thought it might be fun for them to go to Brandon Sanderson's book signing since he happened to be in town that day. I thought is might be more fun if they had a clue who he was and what he'd written, so I took along the Alcatraz book to read to Aidan. I figured I'd get a few chapters read, and if he liked it, we'd go to the signing and get him his own copy to finish. Well, we were so engrossed in the reading that we forgot to leave in time to get to the signing. I did ask Aidan to draw a picture for Brandon though.

Here it is. This is the scene where Bastille and Quentin are fighting the Alivened Paper Monster. You can see the monster, Bastille's broken sword coming out of its chest, Quentin with his gym bag full of guns, and Bastille with her dangerous handbag. I'm not sure why they're wearing helmets. I think that Aidan just thinks helmets are cool. link

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