Cessation of discussion

[House of Mustard]

I think one of the problems with this thread is that we keep using the word "offend".  Personally, I can't remember the last time I've gotten offended by something, and I think most people on the boards are not getting offended either.

"Annoyed" might be better, or "irritated".

Look at the locked threads again and see if they follow the forum guidelines:

FOURTH ITEM: Be polite.  
I can't stress this enough.  Being insensitive to others' opinions is a failing of both newcomers and long-time posters.  Try not to contribute to this atmosphere. It is good to have strong opinions, and it's even better to have opinions that are different from those of other posters.  The forum experience is about discussion and disagreement.  However, you can disagree with someone without calling them names or otherwise insulting them.  Be nice and respect people's differences.

I don't think the Cookie Rehab thread, or others, were offensive, but they were unnecessarily rude.

(I'm not saying that I'm perfect here, either, by the way.)

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

see, I disagree. Not with being polite, but I am accused repeatedly of being offensive. Yes, that word has been used. Frequently. And often without provocation I can understand when you look at how I explain myself. I don't think saying that a debate is stupid is rude. Sorry, I don't. I would be just fine saying that in high-brow company. Until I was accused of going too far and saying unnecessary things, that was the furthest I went.

[Skar]

Yes, SE, that post WAS designed to make you feel bad.  But I followed all of the rules you claim to follow.  I never called you, specifically, stupid.  I made sweeping implications (that disagreeing with me was equivalent to disagreeing with the whole world) etc...  Yet you were bothered enough to comment on it.  So when you are on the receiving end of your own rules of engagement you don't like it anymore than anyone else.

SE, when you tell someone that their opinion is stupid it's offensive, no one likes it.  It bothers people.

You yourself admit that you have been often and repeatedly accused of being offensive.  Doesn't this give you a signal?  

On the cookie rehab thread in your second post you implied that the posters who were bugged by the change to the cookie monster thought the entire purpose of Sesame Street was to entertain them (condescending) you said you couldn't understand how a "mature" person could come to the conclusion that they had, and you referred to Archon as "some teenager."   So, those who disagreed with you were self-centered, immature, and too young to take seriously.  All this before anyone had accused you of being offensive.

And frankly no one else on that thread lost it.  They all maintained their civility just fine.

I personally and, I think I'm safe in making a sweeping statement here, everyone else here thinks that passion in discussion is just fine and very desirable.  When passion is replaced with vitriol is when it's not OK.

I make no claims to perfection.  I have lost it on occasion.  I try not to, so do we all.  No one is deliberately being offensive or offended.

My sole point is encapsulated in my quilt analogy, which I won't bother to repeat.  

You say it's hard to remain calm when people are accusing you of being offensive.  It's hard for some of us to remain calm when we or our ideas are called stupid or immature or too insignificant to notice.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

THen you misrepresent me. I have neither established rules nor said that "stupid" was the only way to offend someone. Please stop oversimplifying my point. It doesn't show an understanding of what I"m trying to say. And it just goes to show that you think it's a vaid argumentation technique to offend people. If you truly wanted to hold your point, you would stay away from offending people even when proving a point.

Btw, is this offensive? That's all I've done. I didn't call any poster's opinion stupid. In fact, I called an opinion stupid that everyone else specifically separated themselves from. How is that offending them?

Your quilting analogy doesn't work for me, because it doesn't accurately reflect the reality of what we're talking about.

As for you thinking I need a clue, no I don't think that really targets me, because you are the primary source of those comments. And you have been involved in just about every argument I've been in -- the only exception (though there may be a few others) I can think of is the Cookie Rehab thread. Maybe you need to look at that as well when you want to blame me for any troubles around here. Besides, there are always a few people who agree that I haven't said anything offensive.

Now, what are you trying to do? Drive me away? Force me to change a behavior I don't feel is incorrect? If the first, it won't work, I've put too much into TWG to abandon it like that, and my respect for you would drop. Fortunately, I don't believe that's what you are trying to do. If the latter, then you should just lay off. Never in my life has the constant accusation from someone, especially when that accusation is limited as it is here, forced me to change behavior when I don't think I'm wrong. If I'm truly wrong, I will most likely recognize it a while after everyone stops trying to guilt trip me into changing. If I'm not wrong, well, then you're just picking another fight, aren't you? It's obviously not accomplish anything by constantly picking at it.

[Mistress of Darkness]

Skar, I think continuing to use the Cookie thread as an example is losing it's effectiveness, since SE has already agreed that the topic should have been locked.

Thanks for quoting the FAQ, HoM, I had forgotten about that item. Reading it makes me glad that EUOL spent the time to write it. It is well-thought out.

Sometimes I think the biggest problem is that people have a hard time uttering (or typing for that matter) words like "I was wrong," or "Sorry, I was out of line." There seems to be a lot of energy expended to avoid anything that might be construed along those lines. I can think of one instance in particular in which I offended Tage and tried to laugh it off rather than just doing the stand-up thing and apologizing. I guess it worked because Tage didn't respond to it, but given Tage's posting habits I can't be sure.

Skar, I think, if you're really interested in showing SE the validity of your point of view, you're going to have to use a different tact than making him "feel bad." It requires a logical frame of mind to admit the validity of an argument against your own. Being put on the defensive is not conducive to such thinking.

Along with Fell's earlier admonitions to us to police our own posts, I would like to add this request, look to yourself for part of the blame. Once you've acknowledged your own piece of the situation, you will be better able to peacefully resolve the disagreement. You only have the power to change what you yourself have control over. If you don't admit to a level of culpability, you make yourself powerless to affect change.

And Tage, I am sorry. I was out of line.

[Skar]

THen you misrepresent me. I have neither established rules nor said that "stupid" was the only way to offend someone.

Sure you did.

I don't think saying that a debate is stupid is rude.

Btw, is this offensive?

Huh? That link goes to a page where you didn't say anything at all.  What's the connection?

Your quilting analogy doesn't work for me, because it doesn't accurately reflect the reality of what we're talking about.

What's the difference?  You have yet to say.

If you think I'm the only one you've offended on this board...well, I have no response to that.  Perhaps it's true.

I'm not trying to drive you away.  I'm just trying to get to a place where people can post on a thread and not expect you or anyone else to call them or their opinion stupid, immature, simplistic, or disgusting.  If I thought I was the only one who felt this way about your posts I would have said nothing, we've had this discussion off line. Since then you've been getting threads locked without me just fine.

No comment on my examples from the cookie rehab thread?  They're germane to the point...

[Skar]

MoD.  I agree that making someone feel bad is an invalid tactic.  I was not trying to make SE change his behavior by making him feel bad I was trying to demonstrate that using the same brand of language he defends would make HIM feel bad, thus illustrating that his argument that people shouldn't reasonably feel bad when he calls their opinion stupid was invalid. Since he had the same reaction they did.

[Fellfrosch]

You know what I think would nip a lot of fights in the bud? Less defensiveness, and less of a focus on semantics. It seems like a ton of discussions in the last few months have stopped being about the topic at hand, and started being about "you're quoting me wrong," "I never said that," "please read what I wrote instead of interpreting it wrong," and so on. There's been a ton of that, from almost everyone. On the one hand, I think it's important that we make our points clear and try to correct someone who obviously misunderstood our intention--but on the other hand, I think there are better ways to do that than to retread the same lines over and over, and focus on how the other person just "isn't getting it." If you feel that you have been misunderstood, don't get defensive and pick each other's posts apart--just restate what you've said in a very different way, so that you're adding something new to the conversation instead of dwelling on past and inherently imperfect statements. I think that could help.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Tell me, how, exactly, saying "I don't think calling a debate stupid" is the same as stating that "stupid is the only way to offend someone" or establishing a "rule" of debate. I really cannot see how that logical sequence progresses.

Huh? That link goes to a page where you didn't say anything at all.  What's the connection?

The word stupid is used quite a bit there. I suspect you don't find it offensive. Yet if I call an opinion that no one holds "stupid" I'm offensive. Double standard?[/quote

What's the difference?  You have yet to say.

Au Contraire. I said quite clearly:
"The other difference is I have REPEATEDLY stated that I intend a difference between the two statements"
In addition, In the quilting example, you are intentionally saying something that denegrates the activity people there are KNOWN to have. Whereas, as I have pointed out, again repeatedly and clearly, I have only called stupid tastes and opinions that no one around appears to have.

I'm not trying to drive you away.  I'm just trying to get to a place where people can post on a thread and not expect you or anyone else to call them or their opinion stupid, immature, simplistic, or disgusting.  If I thought I was the only one who felt this way about your posts I would have said nothing, we've had this discussion off line. Since then you've been getting threads locked without me just fine.

One more time folks, all together I have not said that about any opinion someone here actually HOLDS. That would be a SINGLE thread, Skar. Thank you. I've also not risen to your bait several times.

No comment on my examples from the cookie rehab thread?  They're germane to the point...

I did comment on that. I pointed out that the example you pulled did not actually describe an opinion anyone on the board claimed to have. If you think I haven't said these things, I invite  you to read this thread again. I hate to repeat what Fell just invited us not to do, but you are trying to make points about me doing something that I simply haven't done. I am completely mystified about how I have offended you by doing something that I quite clearly have not done. I can't think of another way to re-frame it.

I just have to assume then, that you ARE arguing for the sake of arguing, because that's the only way I can describe what you are doing. Feel free to clarify the matter. You're not trying to drive me away, you're not trying to get me to change something I've actually done. I don't get what your actual goal *is*.

[Oseleon]

Really,
Semantics is the last refuge of a lost argument.  

SE, I welcome you to come at me full bore in any topic I post.  I doubt you or anyone here has what it takes to get "under my skin"
I do wonder HOW someone could let an internet post get under their skin at all...

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

MoD.  I agree that making someone feel bad is an invalid tactic.  I was not trying to make SE change his behavior by making him feel bad I was trying to demonstrate that using the same brand of language he defends would make HIM feel bad, thus illustrating that his argument that people shouldn't reasonably feel bad when he calls their opinion stupid was invalid. Since he had the same reaction they did.

I didn't have the same reaction though. I didn't tell you to stop it or that you were out of control. I posted that it was a weak and invalid argumentation tactic, yet all this time you INTENDED to be offensive, whereas I have not.

[Skar]

OK.  You're right.  I'm wrong.

[Mistress of Darkness]

/me applauds

[Skar]

*Skar applauds

[MsFish]

I would just like to say that I am exceedingly exceedingly annoyed that our conversation on the superfly thread got locked for absolutely no visible reason.  I didn't realize that being too "girly" was against the FAQ.  This makes me never want to come back to the site, because I don't want to deal with it anymore.