Timewaster's Guide Archive
Local Authors => Brandon Sanderson => Topic started by: Coof on August 20, 2008, 04:34:55 PM
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Since I finished rereading Mistborn 2, something has continued to confuse me.
In Chapter 12when Sazed goes with Marsh to the Conventical to retrieve something. Marsh goes to get Sazed, saying that he needs his help in case his brethren are there. When they are in the Conventical, Marsh tells Sazed not to follow him while he goes up the stairs.
From what we know of the third book chapter one, why would Marsh, who is somewhat controlled by Ruin, need help to protect him from his brethren?
If Ruin really controls Marsh, why would he want Sazed to go with him? Sazed finds the metal journal that eventually leads to the understanding that something is changing his memories and his metalmind. In that case, I am not so sure that it is Ruin controlling Marsh.
Seeing what is contained in the metal journal is partly what convinces Sazed to return to Luthadel. It just seems weird to me that the power that is controlling Marsh, who I assumed to be Ruin, would make that kind of mistake.
I still believe that the Well of Ascension would have called to Vin, she seemed to be going that direction on her own without Sazed's help, so why introduce a variable that could spoil everything?
Does anybody have any thoughts?
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Ruin may have only partial control by that point. Some time has passed between when you see Marsh at the beginning of book 2 and the end of book 2 when you see him again.
Edit: At that point, Marsh may have been able to tell that Ruin was trying to control him and wanted him to go alone, so he brought Sazed because that was going against the whispers in his head and Sazed was the only one that could memorize everything there that may be important.
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What he said.
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I think Ruin WAS in control at this point. He wanted Marsh to bring Sazed there, but he also made sure that Marsh hurried Sazed away, so he had to take a rubbing, and thus so that was would be unable to commit the plate to memory, so that he wouldn't notice Ruin's changes. He needed Sazed to see rubbing, and bring it back (with Ruin's changes) so that Sazed would start to see Vin as the Hero. Ruin didn't count on Sazed figuring out the bigger story, so when Sazed did, and tried to stop Vin, Ruin ordered MArsh to kill him. I thought that was fairly obvious.
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What I don't understand is, if Ruin was easily controlling Marsh like that, why it didn't just force Marsh to release it from the well.
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Clearly, for some reason the person to release Ruin had to be Vin. Somehow she is different from others. Exactly how, is what we've all been trying to figure out.
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That also reminds me of the earring, it burned when she got in the well, why would Ruin want her to remove her earring, which gives him more influence over her? I know this has been talked about before but...
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Clearly, for some reason the person to release Ruin had to be Vin. Somehow she is different from others. Exactly how, is what we've all been trying to figure out.
Vin could use Allomancy, Marsh could use Allomancy.
Marsh was pierced by metal in a Hemalurgic process, Vin may have been pierced by metal in a Hemalurgic process.
Vin had Reen's obsidian, Marsh...
Just adding more ammo for the Pro Reen's Obsidian group, lmao.
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I agree that Vin is different from the others. Kelsier couldn't pierce copperclouds but Vin can.
I think Vin had to be the one to release the Well, otherwise Ruin could have forced any Steel Inquisitor to do so.
Also, its naive to think that one of the primary forces of the Mistborn world would underestimate Sazed so easily.
I don't see any evidence to the fact that Ruin could exert more influence on Marsh at the end of Book 2 than at the beginning. Ruin seems to have had control of all the Steel Inquisitors as evidenced by the fact that they banded together and left the conventical to go after the Terris people.
By reading the posts for the Mistborn trilogy, I have noticed that when people start talking about Ruin being connected to the deepness and the Well of Ascension, the Alpha readers seem to go all criptic and they start throwing out fake possibilities.
For me that means that the relationshio between Ruin, the Well of Ascension, the being controling Marsh and the Deepness is either more complicated or more simple than we are saying.
I just had a thought. Maybe not all the steel inquisitors are being controled by Ruin. Ruin obviously knows about the Well. It was important for him to be released by Vin. Why wouldn't he have a couple of Steel Inquisitors go and protect what Vin was going to do. Why send only Marsh and chance him being beaten and his plan stopped?
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I think the obsidian is significant, but not in that way. I don't think that's why Ruin need Vin.
Vin is also extemely powerful at allomancy, and not just piercing copper clouds with that earring. She can push and pull harder than a normal mistborn of her size should be able to, she can soothe and riot with extreme delicacy with very little practice. She actually grasps all allomancy as if it comes naturally to her. There is something very special about Vin, but what?
and Coof just posted while I was typing.
I also think there's something more to Ruin and the Deepness, I think I talked about that in the Ruin and Preservation thread. And Ruin didn't underestimate Sazed, Sazed didn't figure it out in time, and only with the help of the mist spirit. That's what Ruin probably didn't count on, the mist spirit.
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If Sazed had the information necessary to decifer the truth, even if its with the Mist spirit's help, then somebody underestimated something.
I think Vin would have been drawn to release the Well of Ascension even without the journal stamped in metal. She was drawn to it.
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I don't think it unlikely that Ruin was just making sure Sazed got the rubbing and associated Vin with the Hero of Ages. As to why Ruin didn't have a bunch of inquisitors protect Vin going in instead of just Marsh...Marsh is the only one around. And even if there are others, as soon as Vin heard anything about them she'd try to take them out.
I think the reason Ruin can't get inquisitors to release him is because hemalurgists can't use the well. Hear me out on this one. Vin had to take her earring out because it burned when she tried to get into the well with it. If an inquisitor tried with eleven ginormous spikes, they'd die.
I think it has to be Vin because she has enough hemalurgy that she can hear Ruin calling and has the knowledge that the well is there, but doesn't have enough hemalurgy that she'll die on contact with the well. Makes sense?
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I agree that the Steel Inquisitors couldn't release the power of the Well.
As for Marsh being the only one around, that seems unlikely to me because why would Marsh be there at all?
Also Vin wasn't able to detect Marsh being there, so why couldn't a couple of them be there without anybody telling Vin?
I also don't see why Sazed had to associate Vin with the Hero? Vin was being drawn to the Well without Sazed's help. I think that thumping in her head would have lead her to release the power without Sazed's help.
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I'd assume Steel Inquisitor's aren't exactly the easiest thing to sneak into Luthadel, let alone trying to hide one there. In a city of thousands of people, the one with the spikes through his eyes is really at a disadvantage. Especially while tensions are still high from the war.
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Exactly what I was saying. How could Marsh get in unnoticed? However he did it, others could do it as well.
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Exactly what I was saying. How could Marsh get in unnoticed? However he did it, others could do it as well.
Except that Marsh was thought of by those in power as a good guy. He could easily have gotten help from one of the crew.
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And he didn't go unnoticed, there were several reports of an inquisitor in Luthadel. I like this idea that hemalurgist can't release the power of the well, which is why Vin had to take out her earring. It also makes sense why Ruin (if it was Ruin) instructced Vin's mother to use only an earring instead of a spike so that Vin could remove it without harming herself. And if Hemalurgy is of Ruin, then it would make sense that a hemalurgist couldn't take the power, because the power in the well was made to trap Ruin, and thus would not blend with things of him.
AS for why the other inquisitors weren't there, they were probably busy attacking and capturing the Keepers.
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I didn't remember others noticing a steel inquisitor in Luthadel. I'll have to go look back at that.
I believe that it would be relatively easy to get into a city ravaged by war. The popluace was hiding and many of the entrances were probably not guarded.
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And he has allomancy, remember how easy it was for Kell, Vin, and Zane to get in. It says several times near the end that an inquisitor was sighted in Luthadel. I guessed it was Marsh right away, but it didn't say it was him.
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And he didn't go unnoticed, there were several reports of an inquisitor in Luthadel. I like this idea that hemalurgist can't release the power of the well, which is why Vin had to take out her earring. It also makes sense why Ruin (if it was Ruin) instructced Vin's mother to use only an earring instead of a spike so that Vin could remove it without harming herself. And if Hemalurgy is of Ruin, then it would make sense that a hemalurgist couldn't take the power, because the power in the well was made to trap Ruin, and thus would not blend with things of him.
Well then why would Ruin want Alendi to go to the Well if he can't do anything?
Also i don't think that removing your piercings makes you a non-hemalurgist. A mistborn without metals is still a Mistborn, just like a feruchemist without any armbands is still a feruchemist.
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That is a really good question Reeves.
There seem to be a lot of inconsistencies with what we of of so far. Was Rashek a Hemalurgist as well as the other two?
I agree that the process of piercing creates a Hemalurgist, but I think that once you have that power, removing some of the piercings won't undo what was done.
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I phrased that poorly. I was talking about active hemalurgy, which can only be used with the spike/earring. Not what comes just from being a hemalurgist.
And Alendi has piercings, not spikes. Besides, we don't even know if they're hemalurgical. for all we know they're to look cool. But even if they are, he could just remove them...
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Well, The Lord Ruler did have piercings on his upper arms, and Brandon says he has all three magic systems. Could those bands (of Atium specifically?) be the piercings of the Hero? If so, perhaps what happened is that Raskek killed Alendi in such a fashion that Alendi's (theoretical) Hemalurgical piercings could instead be used by him. Just adding to the intrigue.
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Well, The Lord Ruler did have piercings on his upper arms, and Brandon says he has all three magic systems....
Is that an actual quote or a paraphrase? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the inquisitors are the only known users of heralurgy. I thought that TLR had the piercings to keep his bands from being used by another allomancer.
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Marsh's plan to kill the Lord Ruler is a good one too. Unfortunately, the Lord Ruler's power doesn't come only from Hemalurgy, but from other things as well. If he'd pulled off the bracelets instead. . .
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I don't think that Brandon is referring to the Bracelets being hemalurgical. He says instead. Marsh's plan would work on someone who is using only hemalurgy, but the lord Ruler has feruchemy as well, in the bracelets, which is why Marsh should have pulled off the feruchemical bracelets
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But it seems to me that they're the only piercings we know of that The Lord Ruler has. All of the metal rings and bracelets and such are free and Vin can use them for Allomantic anchors. (But that's really not a good idea.) And seeing as how those are the only piercings on his whole upper torso, I'm inclined to believe they're either all or almost all the Hemalurgy he has at that moment. But that raises the question of why? Why are only those thin bracelets (Made of atium I might add.) the only Hemalurgic piercings he's got?
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I think the Feruchemincal (we know they are feruchemical because they stored his age) bracelets were only piercing him so that Allomancer couldn't steal them. Perhaps the Lord Ruler has removable piercings, like Vin, and only uses it when he needs to, or maybe he uses hemalurgy in a different way that we don't understand yet. From the way brandon stated it, it sound like the bracelets are NOT hemalurgic.
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They bracelets were for storing age.
Brandon says that The Lord Ruler is a Hemalurgist as well as a Feruchemist. We know he could use Allomancy but I am unsure as to whether or not he was Mistborn. Maybe he obtained his powers from hemalurgy. Also Brandon says that The Lord Ruler obtained his power from a different source from Vin, so maybe the Lord Ruler wasn't Mistborn. Just a thought.
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I'm assuming the lord ruler got his power from the metal elend ate,but maybe he ate a lot of it, or maybe he used a combination of allomancy and feruchemy to get more powerful, like he made atium into an age giving metal, maybe he could store up steel power and speed in steel, and then burn it for increased returns, making his pushes stronger. Anyways, power aside, I think that is what is meant, the Lord ruler got his pwoer from the metal, Vin got the power through genetics. We also don't know why she is so powerful yet.