Author Topic: 15/16th Metal mystery (SPOILERS AHEAD)  (Read 1562 times)

socom-delta

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15/16th Metal mystery (SPOILERS AHEAD)
« on: January 28, 2011, 02:41:06 AM »
As was suggested to me, I created a new thread on this subject (the old thread I reference is located here: http://www.timewastersguide.com/forum/index.php?topic=5690.15)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Perhaps we're looking at this problem the wrong way.

We're talking about metals, things that have existed in OUR world, things our scientific community understands in great detail.

Things we ALREADY have great knowledge bases about, like the Periodic Table of the Elements.

Instead of looking solely toward the book, we should look toward modern Chemistry.

The Ars Arcanum - and the description of the usage of each metal in the books - holds clues about them.


For Example:

When exposed the same type of radiation (burning metals?), different chemical elements/compounds will give off energy of differing intensities (allomantic powers?) and at different frequencies (allomantic pulsings?), producing visible light of different colors. If the metals do give off metal in pulses, then it's possible that the flow of power seems constant because the pulses themselves are of sufficient strength as to lapse so marginally that the lapse is hardly felt. (see: reference image below)

Perhaps it's worth going back through the books to find the description of the pulsing of each metal, and then compare this with the properties of their real-life constituents?

Does Brandon have a secret love of chemistry that he's chosen to share with us? :=)



~~~~~~~~~~~~



That is an example of a sine wave, used to measure the frequencies of different types of sound and light.

If you're measuring energy that's given off in pulses, as sound and light theoretically are, then what's to assume you can't measure allomantic powers the same way (especially if those pulses are produced by a reaction with well-known and publicized metals)?

-edit-

Sorry. I didn't realize this thread was already quite old, but I couldn't pass it up. It reminded me of one of those brain teaser puzzles I read as a kid.

Bear in mind I don't have the correct percentages of each of the metals handy, so at this moment it's not possible for me to do a detailed analysis of each of the allomantic metals.

HOWEVER... several things immediately stuck out to me as I read this book. And some of the pushing metals are actually composed of the pulling metals

The PULLING metals are chemical elements; the PUSHING metals are chemical compounds; that is, the PUSHING metals are actually more than one element.

Iron - used in pulling metals toward you (or you to them, if they weigh more than you)
Steel - used in steelpushing (coinshot). Steel is typically comprised of part iron, and part of several other elements or chemical compounds:

Quote from: wikipedia
Steel is an alloy that consists mostly of iron and has a carbon content between 0.2% and 2.1% by weight, depending on the grade. Carbon is the most common alloying material for iron, but various other alloying elements are used, such as manganese, chromium, vanadium, and tungsten.[1] Carbon and other elements act as a hardening agent, preventing dislocations in the iron atom crystal lattice from sliding past one another. Varying the amount of alloying elements and the form of their presence in the steel (solute elements, precipitated phase) controls qualities such as the hardness, ductility, and tensile strength of the resulting steel. Steel with increased carbon content can be made harder and stronger than iron, but such steel is also less ductile than iron.

Tin - Used to enhance the five senses (although taste was never explored in the book iirc)
Pewter - Used to enhance strength, although using pewter can also dull the senses (this is why pain is dulled when burning pewter)

Quote from: wikipedia
Pewter is a malleable metal alloy, traditionally 85-99% tin, with the remainder consisting of copper, antimony, bismuth and lead. Copper and antimony act as hardeners while lead is common in the lower grades of pewter, which have a bluish tint. It has a low melting point, around 170–230 °C, depending on the exact mixture of metals.[1] The word pewter is probably a variation of the word spelter, a colloquial name for zinc.

And look at that. Pewter is composed not only of tin, but also of copper! Another connection? Perhaps. But it's comprised partly of tin.

Zinc - riots emotions
Brass - soothes emotions. I think Brass is the pushing metal here because Vin described soothing someone's emotions completely as leaving them devoid of emotion, as though it simply left them.

Quote from: wikipedia
Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc; the proportions of zinc and copper can be varied to create a range of brasses with varying properties.

Interesting. Brass is comprised of copper and zinc.

Copper - hides allomantic pulses
Bronze - allows detection of allomantic pulses

Quote from: Wikipedia
Bronze is a metal alloy consisting primarily of copper, usually with tin as the main additive, but sometimes with other elements such as phosphorus, manganese, aluminum, or silicon.

Fascinating! Starting to see the pattern? The next metal in the ars arcanum is aluminum; the previous one was copper. Bronze is a combination of copper and often tin, but sometimes aluminum. Brass was a combination of copper and zinc (zinc before it, copper after it on the ars arcanum). So there's a deliberate pattern here. It ties into the way the metals are listed. Bear in mind I had to switch some metals to make my list fit, so it's possible I could be wrong. However, if you look at the next metal pair, then you'll see that they don't quite fit.

Aluminum - destroys allomantic reserve
Duralumin - enhances the next metal burned

This pairing doesn't make sense at first glance. Aluminum destroys an allomantic reserve; shouldn't duralumin, by being an opposite, grant a reserve? Let's put this another way.... since immediately renders the use of a metal reserve at 0% of its potential, then duralumin immediately renders the use of a metal reserve at 100% of its potential. That's why it burns out all currently-burning metals instantly but why aluminum depletes a reserve immediately.

Atium - See into other people's futures
Malatium - See into other people's pasts

Gold - See into your own past
Electrum - See into your own future

Kelsier was right to say that Gold was oddly paired with atium because they didn't appear to be complementary... because they weren't! Look at how straightforwardly opposite atium/malatium and gold/electrum are!

The thing that stumps me about the elements is that atium didn't exist until the Lord Ruler came into play, and I'm pretty sure Atium wasn't a component in Duralumin.

But what if Atium was actually another element undiscovered on this world? We know it came from underground, in geodes (crystals) - instead of ore rocks - so it's unusual that it would display the property of a mineral rather than a metal. Perhaps the crystals merely LOOKED like crystals, but were something else? Maybe atium is something super rare, like:

PLATINUM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Platinum_crystals.jpg

or

IRIDIUM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Iridium2.jpg

So I need some more information, if someone can help me look. I need the chemical compositions of malatium and electrum, and the precise compositions of the other allomancer's metals.

It may not be as complicated as having to look up the properties of each of the elements listed and see how they react with their pairs but it would be handy to have the percentages right.

~~~~

ugh... nevermind. Man I feel dumb. I see there's already a poster released that spoils the last two metals.

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/graphics/mb_table_v13.jpg

Ironically, the post author references my birthday in that post....

Well, I suppose that leaves some remaining mysteries, then. What Hemalurgic and Feruchemical powers do the remaining metals offer, and where do you put the spikes to grant Hemalurgic power? We know putting a spike into the ear lobe grants the ability to pierce copperclouds, spikes in the eyes grant super tineye vision, an iron spike in the left shoulder gives pewter-like strength. What about the spike that pierces the heart? Zane had one through his chest; so did Penrod.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 06:45:36 AM by socom-delta »

Chaos

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Re: 15/16th Metal mystery (SPOILERS AHEAD)
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2011, 06:12:05 AM »
Hi socom! Good to see some new blood (not that I come around these parts too often).

Quote
The PULLING metals are chemical elements; the PUSHING metals are chemical compounds; that is, the PUSHING metals are actually more than one element.

My chemistry is rusty, but I'm fairly certain that alloys are not compounds. Chemical compounds are molecules. Alloys are solutions (a mixture), not a compound.

Quote
spikes in the eyes grant super tineye vision

I'm fairly certain that the spikes in the eyes grant the ability of Allomantic iron or steel. An Inquisitor needs iron or steel to see, so those powers are given to every Inquisitor. After all, Inquisitors don't see through tin, they see because they are steel or iron savants, due to burning those metals constantly.

And um, not to complain, but you really need to make those images into links. That platinum image is like five times too large to fit on a forum.

Also, do note that the Allomantic Table you linked as a few typos. One notably being lerasium mistakenly spelled "larasium".

If you're excited for the 15th and 16th metals, the main character of Alloy of Law is a bendalloy Misting :)
www.17thshard.com - The Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite.

Oh SNAP, I'm an Allomancer.

socom-delta

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Re: 15/16th Metal mystery (SPOILERS AHEAD)
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2011, 06:48:35 AM »
Thanks. I fixed the image links.

Sorry for the megapost. Was originally in another thread, as several different posts that I combined into one. But no, they're still chemical compounds. A compound is simply some combination of 2 or more elements.

Thanks for the insight on the iron/steel eyespikes. Do you know of any other confirmed spike locations?

Chaos

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Re: 15/16th Metal mystery (SPOILERS AHEAD)
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2011, 07:31:28 AM »
Nope. I think Brandon left it intentionally vague.

And not to beat a dead horse, but an alloy is not a compound. If it was a compound, it would probably say something about that.. It instead says it is a "solid solution". Saying an alloy is a compound is like saying sugar water is a distinct chemical compound, which is obviously false. Compounds are created via chemical reactions. I can mix stuff mechanically, which gives it different properties, but this does not make it a pure chemical compound. Chemical compounds are pure and identical (as in, H2O is H2O anywhere). Sorry if I sound like a jerk, but I very clearly remember physical science class (eons ago when I took it) make this point crystal clear.

Doing research on compounds reveals:

Quote
Some mixtures are so intimately combined that they have some properties similar to compounds and may easily be mistaken for compounds. One example is alloys. Alloys are made mechanically, most commonly by heating the constituent metals to a liquid state, mixing them thoroughly, and then cooling the mixture quickly so that the constituents are trapped in the base metal. Other examples of compound-like mixtures include intermetallic compounds and solutions of alkali metals in a liquid form of ammonia.

Sorry. Alloys aren't compounds. Compounds are chemical combinations, and that makes all the difference.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 07:34:53 AM by Chaos2651 »
www.17thshard.com - The Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite.

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Morderkaine

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Re: 15/16th Metal mystery (SPOILERS AHEAD)
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2011, 07:44:39 AM »
Zane's spike granted steel Allomancy; it's the reason his steelpushes were abnormally strong and precise (ie. floating perfectly still in mid-air with just a single coin).

A pewter spike strait through the front of chest, and through the heart, grants steel Feruchemy.

Those two I know for certain. I had some notes on some others but I can't find them right now. Although I feel I should mention that location in the body is only one of three factors which determine what any given spike does. (The other two being the metal the spike is made of and the abilities of the person used to imbue the spike.)

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Re: 15/16th Metal mystery (SPOILERS AHEAD)
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2011, 08:56:12 AM »
I was under the impression from the annotations and ars arcanum that it didn't really matter what the metal was that ways used in Hemalurgy.  I'm not saying it didn't have an affect, just that Hemalurgy is extremely complicated and placement was more important than the particular type of metal used for the spike.

Of course, I've been drinking tonight so I may be fouling up my whole theory there.

I'm still pondering what would be the novel affect of an allomancer burning a hemalurgic spike.  There has to be something to it.  I'm not talking about gargling with inquisitor spikes, I was thinking smaller spikes.  Would a feruchemically charged hemalurgic spike be burnable by an allomancer?  If so, would it be the base metal that rules or would it be impossible to burn a hemalurgic spike  charged with feruchemical properties?  (We see this in one of the books, it doesn't work for Vin when she tries to burn a feruchemical metal)  This does, however, leave the door open for an allomancer to burn a hemalurgic spike charged with an allomantic property.  I'm guessing, that it would lead to an extra potent allomantic blast, basically doubling the power of the metal burned, but I am often wrong, and as I said, alcohol is clouding my train of thoughts at the moment.

socom-delta

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Re: 15/16th Metal mystery (SPOILERS AHEAD)
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2011, 04:24:46 PM »
yeah you're right about the chemical compound/alloy distinction. my mistake :o

I was under the impression from the annotations and ars arcanum that it didn't really matter what the metal was that ways used in Hemalurgy.  I'm not saying it didn't have an affect, just that Hemalurgy is extremely complicated and placement was more important than the particular type of metal used for the spike.

There's a chapter heading in the book, which compares Hemalurgy to Allomancy & Feruchemy, that makes mention (from Sazed's POV?) of the need to know where to place the spikes. This would probably be why Inquisitors always get spikes through their eye sockets (although this looks pretty imposing, too), but also why Zane and Pendrod were given spikes through the heart.

douglas

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Re: 15/16th Metal mystery (SPOILERS AHEAD)
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2011, 04:37:34 PM »
As I understand it, to get the effect you want in Hemalurgy you have to use both the correct metal and the correct placement.  If you get either one wrong you get something different or an outright failure.

CabbyHat

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Re: 15/16th Metal mystery (SPOILERS AHEAD)
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2011, 11:41:36 PM »
I was under the impression from the annotations and ars arcanum that it didn't really matter what the metal was that ways used in Hemalurgy.  I'm not saying it didn't have an affect, just that Hemalurgy is extremely complicated and placement was more important than the particular type of metal used for the spike.

Of course, I've been drinking tonight so I may be fouling up my whole theory there.

I'm still pondering what would be the novel affect of an allomancer burning a hemalurgic spike.  There has to be something to it.  I'm not talking about gargling with inquisitor spikes, I was thinking smaller spikes.  Would a feruchemically charged hemalurgic spike be burnable by an allomancer?  If so, would it be the base metal that rules or would it be impossible to burn a hemalurgic spike  charged with feruchemical properties?  (We see this in one of the books, it doesn't work for Vin when she tries to burn a feruchemical metal)  This does, however, leave the door open for an allomancer to burn a hemalurgic spike charged with an allomantic property.  I'm guessing, that it would lead to an extra potent allomantic blast, basically doubling the power of the metal burned, but I am often wrong, and as I said, alcohol is clouding my train of thoughts at the moment.
In this interview Brandon said that burning a hemalurgic spike would have the effect of splicing your soul to that of the person who was used to make the spike or something to that effect. Contains spoilers.
http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/01/your-questions-for-brandon-sanderson-answered
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