Author Topic: Is stormlight sentient?? (major spoilers)  (Read 8253 times)

Stormblessed

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Re: Is stormlight sentient?? (major spoilers)
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2010, 08:19:02 AM »
No, the beads in Shadesmar weren't all currency gems. She was drowning in a see of them, but there was one in her hand, specifically, the thing she was touching in the Physical Realm, the goblet. (She wasn't touching her currency gems, as they were in her Safepouch I believe.) She communicated with the goblet's somewhat intelligent manifestation in the Cognitive realm, which was represented by a bead. She asked the bead to change (unintentionally), and gave it stormlight in order to do so.
Soulcasting is essentially bribing the conscious representation of items (their spren, perhaps?) in order to make them change form.

I have a feeling that the beads in shadesmar were different from the beads which hold stormlight, which is what she was clutching in her hand. That was why when she went to shadesmar the second time without a stormlight infused gem she nearly got lost. If the gems in the sea where stormlight infused, she wouldn't have had a problem the second time.

In addition, note that the map of shadesmar on the back cover corresponds to the land of Roshar. Does this mean that when Shallan visited shadesmar, she went to the sea of lost thoughts? (I dont have the US book, so I am reading this off blurry pictures. Is this correct?) Would it make a difference to her soulcasting if she was in a different region of shadesmar?
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Ari54

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Re: Is stormlight sentient?? (major spoilers)
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2010, 06:38:55 AM »
No, the beads in Shadesmar weren't all currency gems. She was drowning in a see of them, but there was one in her hand, specifically, the thing she was touching in the Physical Realm, the goblet. (She wasn't touching her currency gems, as they were in her Safepouch I believe.) She communicated with the goblet's somewhat intelligent manifestation in the Cognitive realm, which was represented by a bead. She asked the bead to change (unintentionally), and gave it stormlight in order to do so.
Soulcasting is essentially bribing the conscious representation of items (their spren, perhaps?) in order to make them change form.

I have a feeling that the beads in shadesmar were different from the beads which hold stormlight, which is what she was clutching in her hand. That was why when she went to shadesmar the second time without a stormlight infused gem she nearly got lost. If the gems in the sea where stormlight infused, she wouldn't have had a problem the second time.

In addition, note that the map of shadesmar on the back cover corresponds to the land of Roshar. Does this mean that when Shallan visited shadesmar, she went to the sea of lost thoughts? (I dont have the US book, so I am reading this off blurry pictures. Is this correct?) Would it make a difference to her soulcasting if she was in a different region of shadesmar?

The context of the sentence heavily implied the bead was one of the ones from the sea of beads, not a normal infused sphere.

As for Shadesmar, you could be right, but Jasnah's warning on entering Shadesmar without sufficient stormlight probably implies that it's dangerous in some way wherever you enter it.

Stormblessed

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Re: Is stormlight sentient?? (major spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2010, 07:03:37 AM »
No, the beads in Shadesmar weren't all currency gems. She was drowning in a see of them, but there was one in her hand, specifically, the thing she was touching in the Physical Realm, the goblet. (She wasn't touching her currency gems, as they were in her Safepouch I believe.) She communicated with the goblet's somewhat intelligent manifestation in the Cognitive realm, which was represented by a bead. She asked the bead to change (unintentionally), and gave it stormlight in order to do so.
Soulcasting is essentially bribing the conscious representation of items (their spren, perhaps?) in order to make them change form.

I have a feeling that the beads in shadesmar were different from the beads which hold stormlight, which is what she was clutching in her hand. That was why when she went to shadesmar the second time without a stormlight infused gem she nearly got lost. If the gems in the sea where stormlight infused, she wouldn't have had a problem the second time.

In addition, note that the map of shadesmar on the back cover corresponds to the land of Roshar. Does this mean that when Shallan visited shadesmar, she went to the sea of lost thoughts? (I dont have the US book, so I am reading this off blurry pictures. Is this correct?) Would it make a difference to her soulcasting if she was in a different region of shadesmar?

The context of the sentence heavily implied the bead was one of the ones from the sea of beads, not a normal infused sphere.

As for Shadesmar, you could be right, but Jasnah's warning on entering Shadesmar without sufficient stormlight probably implies that it's dangerous in some way wherever you enter it.

I still don't see sufficient information to assume that the gem in her hand to come from the sea of beads. In fact, I see more reason to believe that it didn't. Jasnah says:
Quote
You have no idea how dangerous that was. Visiting Shadesmar with only a single dim sphere?
This implies that you can't just pick up any such bead from shadesmar, you actually have to take one with you.

Secondly, I realise that its dangerous entering Shadesmar full stop. But maybe where you enter it could effect the affect you have on the physical realm. (wordiness is a problem)
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guy

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Re: Is stormlight sentient?? (major spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2010, 06:08:22 PM »
I think the beads are like wild cards, you need to bring the stormlight to power them, but once powered they can be used as any kind of gem you want them to be

Erunion

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Re: Is stormlight sentient?? (major spoilers)
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2010, 06:47:24 PM »
The emphasis should be on single dim sphere.
I believe what Jasnah is saying is that you need a lot of Stormlight with you when you enter Shadesmar. The Bead's simply represent items in the physical realm.

guy

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Re: Is stormlight sentient?? (major spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2010, 07:00:19 PM »
does it matter what the bead represents?  I dont think it really does, because soulcasting can change one thing to another, or is it that everything is inherently itself, and whatever happens to it does not make it change?  alternatively, the beads could be representations of spren

happyman

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Re: Is stormlight sentient?? (major spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2010, 10:51:55 PM »
There's a lot of theorizing here, but we seem to be trending towards a particular view.  This is my take on that view:

(1) Shademar is the cognitive realm.  That is, it is the realm of thought.  Everything that thinks would then be represented in the cognitive realm by something.
(2) Spren seem to have the ability to be conscious.  That is, honorspren can become completely sentient, and presumably other spren have cognitive components as well.  Thus they would have a representation in the cognitive realm.
(3) Shadesmar is connected to the real world, somehow.  What affects one affects the other, and vice versa.
(4) Shallan talked to the bead, and then the goblet turned into blood.  If we are to assume a simple causative connection between the two (probably best), we must assume that the bead in the cognitive realm represented the goblet in the physical realm.  That would be why she appeared in Shadesmar holding it; she was touching it in the real world and so when she went into the cognitive real, she was still holding it.  All that changed was the way she perceived it.
(5) Asking which was real, the goblet or the bead, probably doesn't make much sense.  They are both representations of the goblet.
(6) It may have been a spren which she talked to, but we don't know.  It fits, but it's hard to say.  I find it interesting that a goblet would be represented in the cognitive realm, though.
(7) Stormlight apparently helps you stay afloat in Shadesmar.  It probably gives you control.  I wonder if it limits how long you can stay there?

I also suspect that none of these constraints apply to Hoid...
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Xavien

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Re: Is stormlight sentient?? (major spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2010, 12:04:29 AM »
There's a lot of theorizing here, but we seem to be trending towards a particular view.  This is my take on that view:

(1) Shademar is the cognitive realm.  That is, it is the realm of thought.  Everything that thinks would then be represented in the cognitive realm by something.

(3) Shadesmar is connected to the real world, somehow.  What affects one affects the other, and vice versa.

I think cognitive isn't quite right, I think they are both "physical" in a sense.  The map of Shadesmar is an inverse map of Roshar - the ground in one is water in the other, though I believe the "Seas" in Shadesmar are made up of the beads.  Or put another way, for every solid object in Roshar there is a corresponding bead or group of beads.  The beads would then control the representation of all things, Soulcasting essentially being asking a certain bead to change its representation on the other side.

I don't think beads are necessarily represented by Spren, I think the beads are at a much more base level than them.  It is even possible that the Spren have a corresponding "bead" or they could be totally outside of it.  It could even be that characteristics that the beads infuse on objects are what attract the spren to them (which would mean that beads forming Kaladin are affected by his honor)

And no I have no idea what this says about the oceans in Roshar :)

happyman

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Re: Is stormlight sentient?? (major spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2010, 12:20:16 AM »
There's a lot of theorizing here, but we seem to be trending towards a particular view.  This is my take on that view:

(1) Shademar is the cognitive realm.  That is, it is the realm of thought.  Everything that thinks would then be represented in the cognitive realm by something.

(3) Shadesmar is connected to the real world, somehow.  What affects one affects the other, and vice versa.

I think cognitive isn't quite right, I think they are both "physical" in a sense.

Could someone answer this?  I was pretty sure Brandon called Shadesmar the Cognitive realm.  IIRC, it's its name.
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Stormblessed

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Re: Is stormlight sentient?? (major spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2010, 02:14:06 AM »
Shadesmar is definitely the cognitive realm. Which means I'm sure that everything, even goblets could possibly have sentience in this realm. Though I thought that struck me is maybe the spren that is hidden in the goblet (as theorised by Kaladin's mum) is merely the cognitive form of that goblet. So Shallan is talking to both the goblet and its spren (one and the same).

Where the stormlight comes from is interesting. It is not already in Shadesmar, and if we accept that the bead she was holding came from shadesmar, then where did the stormlight come from? Do they just have to be on her (such as in her safepouch) or does she actually have to be touching them?
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Never

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Re: Is stormlight sentient?? (major spoilers)
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2010, 03:35:50 AM »
I'll tackle these one by one.

happyman:

"(1) Shademar is the cognitive realm.  That is, it is the realm of thought.  Everything that thinks would then be represented in the cognitive realm by something."

Possibly. I think that it's more likely that the thoughts and concepts themselves are represented. The sun, for example, doesn't think, but the sun is a very strong concept, so it exists in Shadesmar.

"(2) Spren seem to have the ability to be conscious.  That is, honorspren can become completely sentient, and presumably other spren have cognitive components as well.  Thus they would have a representation in the cognitive realm."

I think the relationship between spren and the cognative realm is inherently stronger than a humans, even when that spren is unconscious.


"(3) Shadesmar is connected to the real world, somehow.  What affects one affects the other, and vice versa."

Yes.

"(4) Shallan talked to the bead, and then the goblet turned into blood.  If we are to assume a simple causative connection between the two (probably best), we must assume that the bead in the cognitive realm represented the goblet in the physical realm.  That would be why she appeared in Shadesmar holding it; she was touching it in the real world and so when she went into the cognitive real, she was still holding it.  All that changed was the way she perceived it."

I agree.

"(5) Asking which was real, the goblet or the bead, probably doesn't make much sense.  They are both representations of the goblet."

Or the goblet is a representation of the bead. 

"(6) It may have been a spren which she talked to, but we don't know.  It fits, but it's hard to say.  I find it interesting that a goblet would be represented in the cognitive realm, though."

Given that it's a sea of beads, it's possible that everything that's been conceptualized exists in some form. For example, while I'm looking forward at my computer monitor, I'm also aware there's a window and cat condo behind me where my kitten is curled up.

(7) Stormlight apparently helps you stay afloat in Shadesmar.  It probably gives you control.  I wonder if it limits how long you can stay there?
Quote

I think Stormlight might be what you need to switch from one place to another or to perform certain actions in Shadesmar. You might get stuck in Shadesmar, or perhaps there are creatures there that can attack your mind.

Ari54

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Re: Is stormlight sentient?? (major spoilers)
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2010, 04:53:49 AM »
Shadesmar is definitely the cognitive realm. Which means I'm sure that everything, even goblets could possibly have sentience in this realm. Though I thought that struck me is maybe the spren that is hidden in the goblet (as theorised by Kaladin's mum) is merely the cognitive form of that goblet. So Shallan is talking to both the goblet and its spren (one and the same).

Where the stormlight comes from is interesting. It is not already in Shadesmar, and if we accept that the bead she was holding came from shadesmar, then where did the stormlight come from? Do they just have to be on her (such as in her safepouch) or does she actually have to be touching them?


It could simply be that you draw in all the stormlight-infused items around you. It would be very problematic if you could come to Shadesmar without Stormlight and have difficulty finding it, so it would make a lot more sense as a magic system if you brought your Stormlight with you.

happyman

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Re: Is stormlight sentient?? (major spoilers)
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2010, 05:08:59 PM »
Shadesmar is definitely the cognitive realm. Which means I'm sure that everything, even goblets could possibly have sentience in this realm. Though I thought that struck me is maybe the spren that is hidden in the goblet (as theorised by Kaladin's mum) is merely the cognitive form of that goblet. So Shallan is talking to both the goblet and its spren (one and the same).

Where the stormlight comes from is interesting. It is not already in Shadesmar, and if we accept that the bead she was holding came from shadesmar, then where did the stormlight come from? Do they just have to be on her (such as in her safepouch) or does she actually have to be touching them?


Kaladin doesn't have to be touching gems to get Stormlight from them.  He just inhales and it comes to him.  Maybe Shallan's system is the same way.  As long as it's close enough to her person in the Physical Realm, she can use it to power her abilities in Shadesmar.
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guy

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Re: Is stormlight sentient?? (major spoilers)
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2010, 08:16:13 PM »
the map of shadesmar and roshar correspond, the only difference is that in shadesmar the areas of land from roshar are oceans, and oceans are land, so each ocean is considered a single concept, and the areas of land have many many concepts to be considered, makes one wonder if there would be highstorms in shadesmar

Kykeon

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Re: Is stormlight sentient?? (major spoilers)
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2010, 08:27:34 PM »
The cosmere is like The Matrix with the moving black beads taking the place of flowing lines of green code then... :D