Author Topic: Dalinar's visions  (Read 5893 times)

Harakeke

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Re: Dalinar's visions
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2010, 08:43:34 AM »
Given Vorinism's extreme taboo regarding predictions, I'm not ready to take time-travel paradoxes off the table just yet. ;)  Enjoying the discussion though.   ;D

If we bring Shadesmar into play (my catch-all explanation for everything!), we could potentially eliminate the mechanics of time travel from the equation.  I don't see any particular reason why a "cognitive realm" would have to follow the same rules of time as the physical realm.
It's pretty clear that Dalinar's body isn't going anywhere during his visions (much to the chagrin of his troops) -- it's just his mind that is bouncing around (or just going unhinged).  It could be that the entire scene takes place simultaneously in the cognitive realm for all participants, but is directly correlated with a specific moment in the past in the physical realm.


Stormblessed

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Re: Dalinar's visions
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2010, 09:12:50 AM »
I like the idea of Shadesmar being the matrix (can't remember who mentioned that now), and the AI simulated people from the past (voidbringers) are the Agent Smith's.

But seriously, if time travel is possible, it would be through Shadesmar. Hoid uses the cognitive realm to planet-hop, and time-travel and planet-hopping are very closely related scientifically (time-space continuum, anyone?), but of course I'm not a physicist.
"You've killed me. Bastards, you've killed me!
 -- Darkeyed Soldier

brycex99

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Re: Dalinar's visions
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2010, 05:35:34 PM »
Something does seem to be slightly different in these visions.  It's not really a standard "view the past" vision, as, like you said, Dalinar has been interacting with people.  Although I love the idea of time travel, and that Dalinar had influenced huge decisions in the past from the present day, it doesn't really seem to fit the theme.  But then again, there is so much we don't know in regards to how everything works in Roshar and Shadesmar, that I could very well be wrong too :)

The only thing that holds me back from that is the admission from the Almighty himself that these were essentially recordings.  Obviously very elegant and complicated recordings, but recordings nonetheless. That's why I wouldn't cast a vote for time travel, even though I absolutely love the thought of it!

Erunion

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Re: Dalinar's visions
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2010, 05:54:19 PM »
I agree with the above, I love the idea of time travel, but it seems that a recording is more likely.

Of course, if Shadesmar, or the spiritual realm (whatever that's called) exists outside of time (which is certainly possible), then time travel should be possible. If Shadesmar can indeed be used to planet hop/teleport, then Shadesmar can be used to time travel. It's simply a matter of putting yourself "sometime else" instead of "someplace else".
This is all, of course, just wild speculation.
But fascinating wild speculation.

happyman

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Re: Dalinar's visions
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2010, 06:20:05 PM »
Time travel is a hard idea to do properly.  Lots of people have tried, and many have failed.  The trouble is that causality is such a deep part of our understanding of the world (instinctive, I suspect) that we just can't deal with what time travel would do to us.  Partly because of this, I suspect that the recordings theory is more accurate than actual time travel in this case.

My theory is that the Almighty's ability to give visions is related to Shallan's memories.  Because the Almighty is a Shardholder, he has the ability to Memorize, not a two-dimensional image, but a whole scene in time, including the personalities (spirits?) of the people involved.  Just like his taking the memory would be more powerful than Shallan's memories, his ability to play them back would also be extremely enhanced, resulting in what is essentially a three-dimensional interactive world.  Just like Shallan, however, he has a hard time placing himself in the scene---changing what he saw would presumably be a lot harder, and putting himself into the scenes means changing one of the participants personalities, suspending the playback, or similar changes.  It's harder, and probably requires more time; time he may not have had when he realized Odium was going to kill him.

Notice that the scene in which the Almighty appears himself is not at all interactive.  It's setting probably comes from a possible future, so even then it would not be created from complete scratch.
Nature hates being reified.

Erunion

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Re: Dalinar's visions
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2010, 09:24:38 PM »
Very true. I think it likely that Shallan's Memories can take a snapshot of the Physical Realm (and physical perception), whereas the Almighty can take a snapshot of the cognitive realm as well, so he is able to recreate the cognitive aspects of the characters/beings, not just their physical aspects. This is then recorded into an incredibly detailed Matrix-esque* simulation, and sent to people's minds.

*Think the "Woman in the Red Dress" scene near the beginning of The Matrix. Actual humans are put into an interactive simulation with a script. The only real difference is that the Almighty's AI's are far more detailed and based on actual humans, now deceased. Neo and Morpheus's conversation could have gone dozens of ways, and each of them could have killed, or interacted with the AI's in dozens of different ways, as they were in a simulation.

kari-no-sugata

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Re: Dalinar's visions
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2010, 09:31:45 PM »
The visions repeat, so that's especially good evidence that it's not "time travel" of some kind.

Godly recording with interactive playback works for me.

mycoltbug

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Re: Dalinar's visions
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2010, 09:33:14 PM »
What is cool is Brandon has said that Hoid is traveling and has figured out a way to travel with his body. He also said that there are other ways to do it that doesn't involve taking your physical body. I found that kinda interesting. He told that to firstrainbowrose, Josh, and Nehex from the 17th shard.

Stormblessed

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Re: Dalinar's visions
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2010, 12:15:57 AM »
The visions didn't repeat. The last vision was an extension of the first vision. And that was the exception, not set in the past, but a view of a possible future. It was like a circular argument. You start by showing a teaser of the end, then present your argument (the past) then end with the beginning scene, but extending it to encompass the argument you have made.
"You've killed me. Bastards, you've killed me!
 -- Darkeyed Soldier