Author Topic: What are the words?  (Read 6656 times)

Rew

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2011, 08:44:09 AM »
Yeah, sorry for the ambiguity. I wasn't defending the theory that the oath would grant new dawnshards to mankind (something I personally don't think will happen based on the information we have from book 1).  I was simply pointing out that the trope of saying an oath and immediately receiving greater power, which was denigrated as the hallmark of "terrible fantasy," was an integral part to how Brandon set up the magic system of the Radiants (as far as we can tell by Kaladin's leveling-up by declaring the Second Oath).   :)

Ari54

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2011, 01:52:15 AM »
I honestly didn't think it was such a huge stretch for the difference between Kaladin before the battle and Kaladin during to be more about determination and practice (and dramatic license) than about magical words, but if the oaths really are somehow magical than paint me disappointed.

EvilNuff

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2011, 02:12:58 AM »
I honestly didn't think it was such a huge stretch for the difference between Kaladin before the battle and Kaladin during to be more about determination and practice (and dramatic license) than about magical words, but if the oaths really are somehow magical than paint me disappointed.

It is explicitly clear that saying the words had an effect:
Quote
He didn’t know what had happened to him, what had gone on with Syl and the words in his head. It seemed that Stormlight worked better for him now. It had been more potent, more powerful. But now it was gone, and he was so tired. Drained. He’d pushed himself, and Bridge Four, too far. Too hard.
Really to me after reading WoK twice through, it seems clear to me that the most important words are the ideals of the Knights Radiant.  In my opinion there can be no other answer.

Ari54

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2011, 09:56:47 AM »
Right, I'm not objecting to words having an effect so much as whether there's a good explanation for that. (Because so often this sort of thing stays unexplained and comes off as bad writing) It seems that there's room enough for the difference to be explained later when Brandon has some time to zoom in on the magic. :)

happyman

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2011, 02:16:12 AM »
I'm not disappointed at all.  Don't forget, the Words came from inside him, from his deepest character.  Saying them, giving them conscious shape, is a powerful thing.  You don't think just anybody would be affected that way, would you?
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andygal

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2011, 09:11:14 AM »
Knowing Brandon, I don't think you have to worry about it not getting an explanation. Brandon always  thinks his magic systems through throughly and they always have well-defined rules.

And I thought it was an awesome scene. Especially with the ensuing epic ass kicking.

Stormblessed

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2011, 10:38:33 PM »
I think that saying the words are only magical in so far as they show an acceptance to the role of being a knight radiant. The words themselves aren't what caused the change in Kaladin, it's the intent behind the words.
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kari-no-sugata

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2011, 04:27:33 PM »
I have this idea that Honor's power (which should still be in effect) is somewhat contract based, if that makes some kind of sense.

For example, we have the "Oathpact" - maybe in return for power/immortality they had to go through hell. Maybe that's why the ones who didn't go back to hell left their super swords? Maybe so long as one was in hell, parts of the contract would still be valid?

Kaladin's "Words" (note the official-like capital letter) aren't quite so powerful, but they still indicate some kind of commitment - and in exchange Kaladin's power becomes more refined. I doubt there's anything inherently magical about the words - more about setting up an exchange, or something along those lines. However, I think Syl would have had to have been there.

Anyway. Just an idea. It may even be partially correct. I certainly would expect there to be much more to it.... which we'll find out in later books. This is going to be a long series, so we're not going to find out everything in the first book.

happyman

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2011, 08:44:29 PM »
My guess is that this relates to the Cognitive realm, and that aspect of the powers.  When you say something, you also think it; you think it *very* clearly.  Kind of like Awakening.  You have to say something to Awaken, you have to say it correctly, but you also have to think it very clearly.  The Words may be some similar concept; a focus for something that has much deeper meanings and connections to Shadesmar.

I like the idea of a contract, of Kaladin binding himself to a mission he has always dedicated his life to.  It sounds like the kind of thing Honor would like.
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andygal

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2011, 09:04:57 PM »
oooh, I hadn't really thought of the Words as a contract before,but that does make sense. 

Especially in light of Kaladin and Syl's relationship, being like a contract/exchange, she gets intelligence,and he gets awesome superpowers. 

Seems like there's a  lot of contracts going on.

kari-no-sugata

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2011, 08:08:26 PM »
My guess is that this relates to the Cognitive realm, and that aspect of the powers.  When you say something, you also think it; you think it *very* clearly.  Kind of like Awakening.  You have to say something to Awaken, you have to say it correctly, but you also have to think it very clearly.  The Words may be some similar concept; a focus for something that has much deeper meanings and connections to Shadesmar.

I like the idea of a contract, of Kaladin binding himself to a mission he has always dedicated his life to.  It sounds like the kind of thing Honor would like.

Glad you like my idea. Will be interesting to see how things turn out.

Yep, it will also be interesting to see how this relates to the Cognitive realm too. I suspect we'll be going much deeper into magic systems / the Cosmere in this series than in previous books, given that we have a lot of researchers world-wide who have been doing advanced research for a very long time.

I also saw some similarities with Awakening too. Brandon has said there's some universal underpinnings in the Cosmere and that similar aspects of magic will work in similar ways across all worlds (or something like that). Kaladin "breathing" in Stormlight felt a bit like taking Breaths and had some similar effects on him, and you have to expel that Stormlight to drive your magical abilities. So while Stormlight is not the same as Breaths, there seems to be some similar underpinnings.

andygal

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2011, 09:22:38 PM »
It also reminds me a lot of Vin drawing in the mists, the breathes them in and then they swirl around her, oozing back out of her skin, especially when she exhales.

Definitely not a co-incidence, the Stormlight is clearly the power/"body" of a Shard, most likely Honor.

Melriken

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2011, 09:03:00 AM »
It also reminds me a lot of Vin drawing in the mists, the breathes them in and then they swirl around her, oozing back out of her skin, especially when she exhales.

Definitely not a co-incidence, the Stormlight is clearly the power/"body" of a Shard, most likely Honor.
There is a chapter Epigraph in Part 3 that says the City of the Knights Radiant couldn't be built in Alethkar, but had to be built "farther west, closer to Honor".

The Origin is in the east, the Highstorms sweep east to west.

I don't think that Honor is the source of the Highstorms, despite the use of Stormfather as a title for the leader of the Heralds of the Almighty.

old aggie

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2011, 04:29:30 AM »
I pictured Kaladin's speaking the Radiant's Oath as something that "came into focus" within him at the time - like a paradigm shift, when things that previously made no sense to you are turned upside-down and suddenly fall into place. When that happened for him, the Words (I do think this is what Gavilar meant) welled up within him, similar to inspiration or (sort of) prophecy, where it's partly under your own control and partly Something Greater guiding you. Because Kaladin has a destiny, this interpretation just seems right, to me.

(I enjoy reading all your theories! So imaginative!)

CabbyHat

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2011, 06:53:58 AM »
I pictured Kaladin's speaking the Radiant's Oath as something that "came into focus" within him at the time - like a paradigm shift, when things that previously made no sense to you are turned upside-down and suddenly fall into place.

So kind of like what happens when you figure out what's happening in one of Brandon's books?  ;D
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