Author Topic: What are the words?  (Read 6658 times)

Juan Dolor

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2011, 05:15:48 PM »
“You must take this. They must not get it.” He seemed dazed. “Tell…tell my brother…he must find the most important words a man can say….”


Later we're told this is a quote from the Way of Kings, but we're never given the quote.

Any ideas on what they might be?

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CabbyHat

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2011, 06:34:15 PM »
“You must take this. They must not get it.” He seemed dazed. “Tell…tell my brother…he must find the most important words a man can say….”


Later we're told this is a quote from the Way of Kings, but we're never given the quote.

Any ideas on what they might be?

"You're right, dear."

Well OBVIOUSLY.  :D
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Anita

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2011, 10:08:25 AM »
I think that saying the words are only magical in so far as they show an acceptance to the role of being a knight radiant. The words themselves aren't what caused the change in Kaladin, it's the intent behind the words.

I just reread this passage tonight. I would agree with your comment. Up to that point, Kaladin had been going back and forth between his drive to protect and his failures to successfully protect people, almost to the point that not trying was better than failing. He also had the trouble of reconciling the duality of being a healer and killing to protect.

He took his level in badass when he surrendered his fear and despair and accepted the power (and accompanying responsibility) on behalf of those he could protect with it. Maybe his conflictedness was acting to constrict the flow or utilization of the power.

As an aside, this may be my favorite book scene ever. I can almost hear the triumphant music crest and break as I read the words.  :)

CabbyHat

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2011, 04:08:26 PM »
As an aside, this may be my favorite book scene ever. I can almost hear the triumphant music crest and break as I read the words.  :)

One hundred per cent with you there. ^_^ On my first reread I actually cued up a playlist of epic music to go with that scene. It seemed to demand it.
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happyman

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2011, 04:43:22 PM »
I think that saying the words are only magical in so far as they show an acceptance to the role of being a knight radiant. The words themselves aren't what caused the change in Kaladin, it's the intent behind the words.

I just reread this passage tonight. I would agree with your comment. Up to that point, Kaladin had been going back and forth between his drive to protect and his failures to successfully protect people, almost to the point that not trying was better than failing. He also had the trouble of reconciling the duality of being a healer and killing to protect.

He took his level in badass when he surrendered his fear and despair and accepted the power (and accompanying responsibility) on behalf of those he could protect with it. Maybe his conflictedness was acting to constrict the flow or utilization of the power.

As an aside, this may be my favorite book scene ever. I can almost hear the triumphant music crest and break as I read the words.  :)

I almost agree with this statement.  I believe that Kaladin actually had to say the words (in his native language, no less) to form a sufficiently powerful physical focus for the effect to work, kind of like Awakening.  On the other hand, if he hadn't accepted their meaning, I doubt it would have worked either.
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anthonypeers

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2011, 10:39:47 PM »
Back to the original question, has anyone considered the fact that what the king said was the last words out of his mouth, spoken just seconds before his death?  There's a definite possibility that what the king spoke was actually just death-babbling, (perhaps he was channeling Nohadon,)  and Szeth simply interpreted it as actually coming from the king's conscious will because 1) it seemed to fit the context and 2) the death-babbling phenomenon seems to have started at right about this same time and Szeth was probably not aware of it yet.

douglas

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2011, 12:37:57 AM »
Back to the original question, has anyone considered the fact that what the king said was the last words out of his mouth, spoken just seconds before his death?  There's a definite possibility that what the king spoke was actually just death-babbling, (perhaps he was channeling Nohadon,)  and Szeth simply interpreted it as actually coming from the king's conscious will because 1) it seemed to fit the context and 2) the death-babbling phenomenon seems to have started at right about this same time and Szeth was probably not aware of it yet.
I've considered that, but in a rather different way - there's nothing "just" about "just death babbling".  The pre-death blurbs are all full of meaning, prophecy, and supernatural insight, and at least some of them definitively indicate continued awareness of the speaker's present situation and preferences - for example, there's one where one of Taravangian's victims states specifically that he refuses to tell of what he sees because he knows what Taravangian is doing and hates him for it.  Thus, Gavilar's request being part of that phenomenon would grant it more weight, not less.

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that the death-babbling phenomenon is the original reason for the Shinovar custom of honoring dying requests - it's happened before, or has always been happening, and at some point in ancient history they learned to take special heed of dying words specifically because dying words are backed by more than mortal knowledge.  The recent upsurge could be explained by the Everstorm entering the death-viewable future and giving a lot more people something worth actually talking about in their final moments.  Maybe death-babbling has been happening for a long time, but few enough people saw anything significant enough to inspire them to speak that no one really noticed.

anthonypeers

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2011, 12:43:07 AM »
Back to the original question, has anyone considered the fact that what the king said was the last words out of his mouth, spoken just seconds before his death?  There's a definite possibility that what the king spoke was actually just death-babbling, (perhaps he was channeling Nohadon,)  and Szeth simply interpreted it as actually coming from the king's conscious will because 1) it seemed to fit the context and 2) the death-babbling phenomenon seems to have started at right about this same time and Szeth was probably not aware of it yet.
I've considered that, but in a rather different way - there's nothing "just" about "just death babbling".  The pre-death blurbs are all full of meaning, prophecy, and supernatural insight, and at least some of them definitively indicate continued awareness of the speaker's present situation and preferences - for example, there's one where one of Taravangian's victims states specifically that he refuses to tell of what he sees because he knows what Taravangian is doing and hates him for it.  Thus, Gavilar's request being part of that phenomenon would grant it more weight, not less.

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that the death-babbling phenomenon is the original reason for the Shinovar custom of honoring dying requests - it's happened before, or has always been happening, and at some point in ancient history they learned to take special heed of dying words specifically because dying words are backed by more than mortal knowledge.  The recent upsurge could be explained by the Everstorm entering the death-viewable future and giving a lot more people something worth actually talking about in their final moments.  Maybe death-babbling has been happening for a long time, but few enough people saw anything significant enough to inspire them to speak that no one really noticed.

Very interesting.  Lots of good points.  But remember the whole bit about all the magical stuff the rest of Roshar takes for granted not holding sway in Shinovar?

happyman

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2011, 03:33:13 PM »
Back to the original question, has anyone considered the fact that what the king said was the last words out of his mouth, spoken just seconds before his death?  There's a definite possibility that what the king spoke was actually just death-babbling, (perhaps he was channeling Nohadon,)  and Szeth simply interpreted it as actually coming from the king's conscious will because 1) it seemed to fit the context and 2) the death-babbling phenomenon seems to have started at right about this same time and Szeth was probably not aware of it yet.
I've considered that, but in a rather different way - there's nothing "just" about "just death babbling".  The pre-death blurbs are all full of meaning, prophecy, and supernatural insight, and at least some of them definitively indicate continued awareness of the speaker's present situation and preferences - for example, there's one where one of Taravangian's victims states specifically that he refuses to tell of what he sees because he knows what Taravangian is doing and hates him for it.  Thus, Gavilar's request being part of that phenomenon would grant it more weight, not less.

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that the death-babbling phenomenon is the original reason for the Shinovar custom of honoring dying requests - it's happened before, or has always been happening, and at some point in ancient history they learned to take special heed of dying words specifically because dying words are backed by more than mortal knowledge.  The recent upsurge could be explained by the Everstorm entering the death-viewable future and giving a lot more people something worth actually talking about in their final moments.  Maybe death-babbling has been happening for a long time, but few enough people saw anything significant enough to inspire them to speak that no one really noticed.

Very interesting.  Lots of good points.  But remember the whole bit about all the magical stuff the rest of Roshar takes for granted not holding sway in Shinovar?

I seriously doubt the Shin are completely wrong about everything.  They're wrong about some things, no doubt, but they probably have bits of the truth other people have dropped.  Brandon likes that motif, and its much more realistic than the not uncommon claim of all or nothing when it comes to cultures and magic.
Nature hates being reified.

anthonypeers

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2011, 03:41:40 PM »
Back to the original question, has anyone considered the fact that what the king said was the last words out of his mouth, spoken just seconds before his death?  There's a definite possibility that what the king spoke was actually just death-babbling, (perhaps he was channeling Nohadon,)  and Szeth simply interpreted it as actually coming from the king's conscious will because 1) it seemed to fit the context and 2) the death-babbling phenomenon seems to have started at right about this same time and Szeth was probably not aware of it yet.
I've considered that, but in a rather different way - there's nothing "just" about "just death babbling".  The pre-death blurbs are all full of meaning, prophecy, and supernatural insight, and at least some of them definitively indicate continued awareness of the speaker's present situation and preferences - for example, there's one where one of Taravangian's victims states specifically that he refuses to tell of what he sees because he knows what Taravangian is doing and hates him for it.  Thus, Gavilar's request being part of that phenomenon would grant it more weight, not less.

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that the death-babbling phenomenon is the original reason for the Shinovar custom of honoring dying requests - it's happened before, or has always been happening, and at some point in ancient history they learned to take special heed of dying words specifically because dying words are backed by more than mortal knowledge.  The recent upsurge could be explained by the Everstorm entering the death-viewable future and giving a lot more people something worth actually talking about in their final moments.  Maybe death-babbling has been happening for a long time, but few enough people saw anything significant enough to inspire them to speak that no one really noticed.

Very interesting.  Lots of good points.  But remember the whole bit about all the magical stuff the rest of Roshar takes for granted not holding sway in Shinovar?

I seriously doubt the Shin are completely wrong about everything.  They're wrong about some things, no doubt, but they probably have bits of the truth other people have dropped.  Brandon likes that motif, and its much more realistic than the not uncommon claim of all or nothing when it comes to cultures and magic.

Sure, I didn't say they're wrong about everything. Just that a lot of magical stuff doesn't seem to work the same in Shinovar. No highstorms, no spren, they're not familiar with soulcasting, etc...

happyman

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Re: What are the words?
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2011, 05:11:15 PM »
Back to the original question, has anyone considered the fact that what the king said was the last words out of his mouth, spoken just seconds before his death?  There's a definite possibility that what the king spoke was actually just death-babbling, (perhaps he was channeling Nohadon,)  and Szeth simply interpreted it as actually coming from the king's conscious will because 1) it seemed to fit the context and 2) the death-babbling phenomenon seems to have started at right about this same time and Szeth was probably not aware of it yet.
I've considered that, but in a rather different way - there's nothing "just" about "just death babbling".  The pre-death blurbs are all full of meaning, prophecy, and supernatural insight, and at least some of them definitively indicate continued awareness of the speaker's present situation and preferences - for example, there's one where one of Taravangian's victims states specifically that he refuses to tell of what he sees because he knows what Taravangian is doing and hates him for it.  Thus, Gavilar's request being part of that phenomenon would grant it more weight, not less.

In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that the death-babbling phenomenon is the original reason for the Shinovar custom of honoring dying requests - it's happened before, or has always been happening, and at some point in ancient history they learned to take special heed of dying words specifically because dying words are backed by more than mortal knowledge.  The recent upsurge could be explained by the Everstorm entering the death-viewable future and giving a lot more people something worth actually talking about in their final moments.  Maybe death-babbling has been happening for a long time, but few enough people saw anything significant enough to inspire them to speak that no one really noticed.

Very interesting.  Lots of good points.  But remember the whole bit about all the magical stuff the rest of Roshar takes for granted not holding sway in Shinovar?

I seriously doubt the Shin are completely wrong about everything.  They're wrong about some things, no doubt, but they probably have bits of the truth other people have dropped.  Brandon likes that motif, and its much more realistic than the not uncommon claim of all or nothing when it comes to cultures and magic.

Sure, I didn't say they're wrong about everything. Just that a lot of magical stuff doesn't seem to work the same in Shinovar. No highstorms, no spren, they're not familiar with soulcasting, etc...

All true.  But from Szeth's viewpoints and from the prelude, we know that have less inaccurate memories of where the Heralds go when they die.  So the Shin being well-informed about death, despite not knowing anything else, might actually hold water.
Nature hates being reified.