Author Topic: Truthless  (Read 9634 times)

Patriotic Kaz

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2010, 11:24:15 PM »
He explains somewhere why he became Truthless, it's not some small paragraph, but it's either in the book or I'm quite insane, but the second is possible b/c I'm the voice in YOUR head, not my own.
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Kierlionn

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2010, 02:39:38 AM »
He explains somewhere why he became Truthless, it's not some small paragraph, but it's either in the book or I'm quite insane, but the second is possible b/c I'm the voice in YOUR head, not my own.
I believe you just might be insane, I can't recall reading something like that at all and generally I have a good memory of what I have read.

Munin

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2010, 03:27:41 AM »
He explains somewhere why he became Truthless, it's not some small paragraph, but it's either in the book or I'm quite insane, but the second is possible b/c I'm the voice in YOUR head, not my own.
I believe you just might be insane, I can't recall reading something like that at all and generally I have a good memory of what I have read.
Yeah, I... uh... really don't remember anything like that. And there's been a fair amount of discussion about Szeth's crime(s), and this has never come up before.
There's a difference between what's best and what's right. What's best might be different tomorrow or the day after, but right and wrong will stay the same after a thousand years.

happyman

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2010, 02:27:22 PM »
He explains somewhere why he became Truthless, it's not some small paragraph, but it's either in the book or I'm quite insane, but the second is possible b/c I'm the voice in YOUR head, not my own.

Well, until you find some rock-solid quotes, I think things will stay as they are.  The consensus seems to be against this idea.  Szeth thinks about his crimes all the time, but there's no reason to assume they refer to anything before he left Shinovar.
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Munin

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2010, 04:36:53 PM »
He explains somewhere why he became Truthless, it's not some small paragraph, but it's either in the book or I'm quite insane, but the second is possible b/c I'm the voice in YOUR head, not my own.

Well, until you find some rock-solid quotes, I think things will stay as they are.  The consensus seems to be against this idea.  Szeth thinks about his crimes all the time, but there's no reason to assume they refer to anything before he left Shinovar.
Oh, I think it's very likely that his crimes were in Shinovar. I just don't think he tried to overthrow the government.

Especially since that wouldn't make any sense in the context of "his punishment demanded they did not. His honor demanded they did."

For that matter, does Shinovar even have a centralized government?
There's a difference between what's best and what's right. What's best might be different tomorrow or the day after, but right and wrong will stay the same after a thousand years.

guy

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2010, 05:46:01 PM »
i dont think they do, but if they do i am calling szeths dad to be somebody super important, he specifically asks people not to call him by his fathers name because he doesnt believe his dad should be assciated with him

Eerongal

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2010, 05:58:04 PM »
I'm quite insane

Oh, please, kaz, we knew this LONG before WoK came out!  ;D
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Guinevere

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2010, 11:30:43 PM »
It's entirely possible that the Shin's belief in a hell of torment is related to things taught to them by the Heralds.  It's probably not a coincidence.  It's probably a small piece of truth that has been passed down through the ages, changed by the passage.  I don't read anything deeper here, or see that it teaches us anything about Truthless.

The only problem I have with this idea is that the Shin don't believe in the Heralds.  That's a Vorin idea.  If they don't believe in the Voidbringers, then why would they believe something taught by the Heralds?   

It COULD be however that there is an underlying idea that both the Heralds AND the Shin believe in: Oaths.  Both the Heralds and Szeth are held by Oaths and whatever honor held the Heralds to theirs (until the end) is holding Szeth to his.  Though the Heralds took their Oath of their own volition, while Szeth's was a punishment.

I thought for a long time that perhaps it was some sort of magical force holding Szeth to his Oathstone and that it would be impossible for him to go against it, but now I'm thinking that he could turn his back on it, the same way the Heralds turned their backs on their Oathpact.  (Though, I'm pretty sure we'll see how that turned out for them as the story unfolds.  I'm guessing probably not good.  Talanel and they are going to have some words...)  Though as he says multiple times, he feels like he deserves his punishment; every time he "commits a sin" he feels more and more deserving of future sins/punishment.  I feel bad because I really like Szeth, but it's hard to escape a cycle like that.  His depression/honor is what holds him to his Oath, more than any exterior force.

Wolfstar

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2010, 11:52:53 PM »
Sorry Kaz, I don't recall that at all.  However, this is easy to prove/disprove... Szeth is limited to the prologue and interludes in this book, so covering all his ground shouldn't be that hard.
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Stormblessed

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2010, 02:10:41 AM »
It's entirely possible that the Shin's belief in a hell of torment is related to things taught to them by the Heralds.  It's probably not a coincidence.  It's probably a small piece of truth that has been passed down through the ages, changed by the passage.  I don't read anything deeper here, or see that it teaches us anything about Truthless.

The only problem I have with this idea is that the Shin don't believe in the Heralds.  That's a Vorin idea.  If they don't believe in the Voidbringers, then why would they believe something taught by the Heralds?   

They might not believe in the Heralds, but that doesn't mean that at some time the Heralds told the Shin about Hell and the idea stuck. Remember, just because they dont believe in the heralds religiously, doesn't mean that had interactions with them during a desolation.
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BlueRuin

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2010, 04:20:37 AM »
I'm wondering if being Truthless could be a Shin cultural issue more than a spren/Herald/Oath breaking type thing.

In the Rysn chapter, Vstim mentions that he acquired Szeth by way of Thresh/the farmer. Vstim tells Rysn that the farmer's warriors are "the lowliest men like slaves" and they are "traded between houses by way of little stones that signify ownership". He says, "any man who picks up a weapon must join them and be treated the same."  In another chapter, it was mentioned that the Shin gave Szeth the Shardblade and sent him out into the world.

Maybe Szeth was the farmer's slave and aspired to a higher social status, or maybe he picked up a weapon under some circumstance and refused to be treated like the other warriors? This could also fit if he was high born and picked up a weapon, but refused to be treated like a slave. In refusing a weapon, he was punished with carrying the Shardblade.

I don't know. I even looked up the word truthless to see if that would yield any clues. I found the following meanings: devoid of truth, dishonest; spurious  (of illegitimate birth - maybe there's something here?); corresponding to something without having its genuine qualities; falsified or erroneously attributed; deceitful nature or quality.

I'm probably way off, but maybe being Truthless means something along these lines.
 


Munin

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2010, 04:54:19 AM »
I'm wondering if being Truthless could be a Shin cultural issue more than a spren/Herald/Oath breaking type thing.

In the Rysn chapter, Vstim mentions that he acquired Szeth by way of Thresh/the farmer. Vstim tells Rysn that the farmer's warriors are "the lowliest men like slaves" and they are "traded between houses by way of little stones that signify ownership". He says, "any man who picks up a weapon must join them and be treated the same."  In another chapter, it was mentioned that the Shin gave Szeth the Shardblade and sent him out into the world.

Maybe Szeth was the farmer's slave and aspired to a higher social status, or maybe he picked up a weapon under some circumstance and refused to be treated like the other warriors? This could also fit if he was high born and picked up a weapon, but refused to be treated like a slave. In refusing a weapon, he was punished with carrying the Shardblade.

I don't know. I even looked up the word truthless to see if that would yield any clues. I found the following meanings: devoid of truth, dishonest; spurious  (of illegitimate birth - maybe there's something here?); corresponding to something without having its genuine qualities; falsified or erroneously attributed; deceitful nature or quality.

I'm probably way off, but maybe being Truthless means something along these lines.
I think you're close.

Surgebinding is probably considered to be a weapon, as well, so that would force him to basically become a slave.
There's a difference between what's best and what's right. What's best might be different tomorrow or the day after, but right and wrong will stay the same after a thousand years.

happyman

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2010, 02:27:03 PM »
It's entirely possible that the Shin's belief in a hell of torment is related to things taught to them by the Heralds.  It's probably not a coincidence.  It's probably a small piece of truth that has been passed down through the ages, changed by the passage.  I don't read anything deeper here, or see that it teaches us anything about Truthless.

The only problem I have with this idea is that the Shin don't believe in the Heralds.  That's a Vorin idea.  If they don't believe in the Voidbringers, then why would they believe something taught by the Heralds?

That's the thing:  Nobody knows where these old ideas came from any more.  They are long since lost in the mists of time.  If the Heralds ever mentioned what happened to them between Desolations and the idea spread, the notion of Hell could have become quite broadly accepted without the source being generally known.  After the last Desolation, the ideas would continue to develop on their own, and some would probably even jump religions without anyone knowing how or why.

I'm just saying that there is a potential source for the commonality of belief.  It would have happened a long time ago, and not followed a strictly logical progression, but that's people for you.
Nature hates being reified.

LoneStar

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2010, 09:41:16 PM »
I'm wondering if being Truthless could be a Shin cultural issue more than a spren/Herald/Oath breaking type thing.

In the Rysn chapter, Vstim mentions that he acquired Szeth by way of Thresh/the farmer. Vstim tells Rysn that the farmer's warriors are "the lowliest men like slaves" and they are "traded between houses by way of little stones that signify ownership". He says, "any man who picks up a weapon must join them and be treated the same."  In another chapter, it was mentioned that the Shin gave Szeth the Shardblade and sent him out into the world.

Maybe Szeth was the farmer's slave and aspired to a higher social status, or maybe he picked up a weapon under some circumstance and refused to be treated like the other warriors? This could also fit if he was high born and picked up a weapon, but refused to be treated like a slave. In refusing a weapon, he was punished with carrying the Shardblade.

I don't know. I even looked up the word truthless to see if that would yield any clues. I found the following meanings: devoid of truth, dishonest; spurious  (of illegitimate birth - maybe there's something here?); corresponding to something without having its genuine qualities; falsified or erroneously attributed; deceitful nature or quality.

I'm probably way off, but maybe being Truthless means something along these lines.
 



I like this line of thought but think the Honour Spren are involved, at least in Szeth's  case.

The quote from Syl on several occasions "I Bind Things"  is something that keeps tugging at my mind.  maybe Szeth, who could be as old as the Radiants for all we know, did something to break the pact/bond between himself and his Honour Spren causing himself to become Truthless.  In retaliation for this act he may have been bound to his Oath Stone by more compelling means than Honour.  The current tradition of a warrior being honour bound to an Oath Stone could be the cultural evolution of an ancient punishment.

guy

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2010, 05:29:41 PM »
Szeth isn't bound by something other than his own values, in the end he almost kills Taravangian, but he held himself back, not because he was compelled to, but because he didn't want to lose what honor he had left