Author Topic: Truthless  (Read 9330 times)

mycoltbug

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Truthless
« on: September 21, 2010, 02:37:35 PM »
So I have theory it could be way off the mark but I wonder if being a Truthless has to do with breaking the Oath Pact with your spren and that part of the reason Szeth can't kill himself is because when he abandoned the Oath Pact his spren put a final oath on him in order to release him.   

Munin

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2010, 02:41:32 PM »
There are no spren in Shinovar.
There's a difference between what's best and what's right. What's best might be different tomorrow or the day after, but right and wrong will stay the same after a thousand years.

Eerongal

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2010, 02:56:43 PM »
There are no spren in Shinovar.

in so far that we know of. Remember Axies the collector stated that there are many spren who are nigh impossible to find/see. Just because we don't see any and the characters don't think they are any, to me, isn't a convincing argument that there aren't any, consider what we know from Axies.

That said, at this time, i don't think there is sufficient evidence for this theory regarding the truthless, there's too much about shinovar culture in general we don't know, and i don't think at this point they have a whole lot to do with spren in their culture (considering the previous point of discussion), and truthless means something to them, so i doubt being truthless has anything to do with spren.
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Munin

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2010, 02:59:56 PM »
My favorite theory so far (that I did not come up with) is that he became Truthless for becoming a Surgebinder to fight Voidbringers. The Shin apparently don't believe that Voidbringers exist, so Szeth's crime was learning to learn to do something sacrilegious for no reason (keep in mind that Stormlight is apparently sacred to the Shin). However, Szeth believes (or at least believed) that the Voidbringers exist, and that Surgebinding would be vital to stopping them.
There's a difference between what's best and what's right. What's best might be different tomorrow or the day after, but right and wrong will stay the same after a thousand years.

Stormblessed

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2010, 03:06:37 PM »
My favorite theory so far (that I did not come up with) is that he became Truthless for becoming a Surgebinder to fight Voidbringers. The Shin apparently don't believe that Voidbringers exist, so Szeth's crime was learning to learn to do something sacrilegious for no reason (keep in mind that Stormlight is apparently sacred to the Shin). However, Szeth believes (or at least believed) that the Voidbringers exist, and that Surgebinding would be vital to stopping them.

I like this theory. I always had problems understanding this line:

Quote
But, then, did they [the voidbringers] exist? His punishment declared that they didn't. His honour demanded that they did.

This theory does explain that line nicely.
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Patriotic Kaz

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2010, 05:28:31 PM »
He's Truthless for trying to overthrow the government, hell he tells us that much.
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Pechvarry

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2010, 05:48:26 PM »
When?

Omelethead

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2010, 06:30:50 PM »
So I have theory it could be way off the mark but I wonder if being a Truthless has to do with breaking the Oath Pact with your spren and that part of the reason Szeth can't kill himself is because when he abandoned the Oath Pact his spren put a final oath on him in order to release him.   

Just my opinion here, but I don't think there is any compulsion or magic forcing Szeth to obey the holder of his oathstone or keeping him from killing himself. I think he is just that inherently honorable, as most Shin are.

Just because it's a fantasy series doesn't mean it has to have a fantastical explanation.

Munin

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2010, 06:56:12 PM »
He's Truthless for trying to overthrow the government, hell he tells us that much.
What?

I never saw that in the book.
There's a difference between what's best and what's right. What's best might be different tomorrow or the day after, but right and wrong will stay the same after a thousand years.

dria

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2010, 07:04:51 PM »
So I have theory it could be way off the mark but I wonder if being a Truthless has to do with breaking the Oath Pact with your spren and that part of the reason Szeth can't kill himself is because when he abandoned the Oath Pact his spren put a final oath on him in order to release him.   

Just my opinion here, but I don't think there is any compulsion or magic forcing Szeth to obey the holder of his oathstone or keeping him from killing himself. I think he is just that inherently honorable, as most Shin are.

Just because it's a fantasy series doesn't mean it has to have a fantastical explanation.

Well if we can assume that Szeth's powers are the same as Kaladin's (and I think everyone goes along with that) the same honor that keeps him obeying the oathstone holder is probably what attracted the honorspren to him in the first place. I'd say something about him attracting the spren is how he became Truthless. Now how he still has the powers with no obvious connection to the spren is an interesting question.

Cheese Ninja

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2010, 07:18:44 PM »
Quote
Had the Parshendi known what they were consigning him to by tossing his Oathstone away as they fled Kholinar that night? Szeth had been required to recover it, then stand there beside the road, wondering if he would be discovered and executed—hoping he’d be discovered and executed—until a passing merchant had cared enough to inquire. By then, Szeth had stood only in a loincloth. His honor had forced him to discard the white clothing, as it would have made him easier to recognize. He had to preserve himself so that he could suffer.

Either there's some bond between him and the Oathstone that allows him to find it whenever it's unclaimed, or he was leaving with them, saw them toss it, left them to pick it up, and just stood there.  I'm thinking there's some sort of bond, presumably with more effects than just him being able to find it.

Patriotic Kaz

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2010, 08:20:06 PM »
Szeth talks about how he killed a large number of people in Shinovar, the powerful and their servants. This was before he was made Truthless and the sentence for his slaughter is that he must bear the weight of others sins, hence it made him a Truthless (he mentions this around the time he talks about how the Stone Gods will have his soul when he dies).
"Words are double edged blades. Only the great and the foolish play with knives." - Kaz the Buddah

"Take off your sandals, for you are posting on holy ground." -  Yahweh Kaz

"Chaos, go to your room!" - Momma Kaz

Cheese Ninja

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2010, 08:44:08 PM »
Szeth talks about how he killed a large number of people in Shinovar, the powerful and their servants. This was before he was made Truthless and the sentence for his slaughter is that he must bear the weight of others sins, hence it made him a Truthless (he mentions this around the time he talks about how the Stone Gods will have his soul when he dies).

Eh, where are you getting all of that from? This little paragraph?:
Quote
Dangerous thoughts. His way of life was all that remained to him. If he questioned Stone Shamanism, would he then question his nature as Truthless? Dangerous, dangerous. Though his murders and sins would damn him, at least his soul would be given to the stones upon his death. He would continue to exist. Punished, in agony, but not exiled to nothingness.
Better to exist in agony than to vanish entirely.

dria

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2010, 09:26:05 PM »

Eh, where are you getting all of that from? This little paragraph?:
Quote
Dangerous thoughts. His way of life was all that remained to him. If he questioned Stone Shamanism, would he then question his nature as Truthless? Dangerous, dangerous. Though his murders and sins would damn him, at least his soul would be given to the stones upon his death. He would continue to exist. Punished, in agony, but not exiled to nothingness.
Better to exist in agony than to vanish entirely.


Hmm, I missed this on my first reading and I just started my second so maybe that's why this occurs to me now. Does Szeth's talk of punishment there remind anyone else of Kalak talking about where he goes after he dies in the Prelude (Hardbound page 16)?

Quote
How long had it been? Centuries, perhaps millennia, of torture. It was so hard to keep track. Those fires, those hooks, digging into his flesh anew each day. Searing the skin off his arm, then burning the fat, then driving to the bone.

They are bound by an Oathpact and Szeth is bound by an Oathstone. Szeth never mentions the type of torture but if there are two different places people are punished after death that would be a bit coincidental. Maybe I'm drawing parallels where there are none but they seem connected somehow.


happyman

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Re: Truthless
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2010, 10:23:28 PM »
Szeth talks about how he killed a large number of people in Shinovar, the powerful and their servants. This was before he was made Truthless and the sentence for his slaughter is that he must bear the weight of others sins, hence it made him a Truthless (he mentions this around the time he talks about how the Stone Gods will have his soul when he dies).

Eh, where are you getting all of that from? This little paragraph?:
Quote
Dangerous thoughts. His way of life was all that remained to him. If he questioned Stone Shamanism, would he then question his nature as Truthless? Dangerous, dangerous. Though his murders and sins would damn him, at least his soul would be given to the stones upon his death. He would continue to exist. Punished, in agony, but not exiled to nothingness.
Better to exist in agony than to vanish entirely.


I always assumed that the murders and sins he is talking about were the ones he committed after leaving Shinovar.  The Shin belief system apparently assumes that someone who has sinned too much can either go to hell or cease to exist entirely.  He chose to keep existing.  But it says nothing about trying to overthrow the government in Shinovar, or otherwise do anything violent whatsoever.

It's entirely possible that the Shin's belief in a hell of torment is related to things taught to them by the Heralds.  It's probably not a coincidence.  It's probably a small piece of truth that has been passed down through the ages, changed by the passage.  I don't read anything deeper here, or see that it teaches us anything about Truthless.
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