Rights For Spren!!!! (minor spoilers)

[Harakeke]

Hear hear!  And who's to say those Storming merchants will stop at taking away our fabrials, once we're wholly dependent on their coalition?  What's next -- free all the slaves!? 

[Omelethead]

Likely they'll try requiring permits to own or use chulls. An individual would be forced to demonstrate they know how to care for them, and treat them ethically before owning beasts of burden. Obviously, each applicant would be judged by a council of merchants, keeping any aspiring entrepreneur from competing with the already-established and approved businesses.


It figures. Just as we are at the dawn of a new age of wonderful technology, with boundless possibilities of prosperity and freedoms to follow, those afraid of change will use any method they can to maintain their grip on the world.

Rights for spren indeed. 

[Stormblessed]

Spren should be free to choose who they want to bond to. Is it a world of amazing technology, if the system is based on slavery of a population. With freedom will come even better technology. Instead of fabrials, we will have Knights Radiants!! Think of the glory!!

Anyway, on the Greatshell debate, I have reason to believe (though to proof) that they may be related to Thunderclasts and voidbinding. If that is the case then we should not be afraid to cull them. Take Chull's for example. They seem docile, and we really on them for pulling great weights, but if suddenly some force was able to change them, make them hateful, then they would be deadly. Think of the parshmen/parshendi/voidbringer relation.

[Omelethead]

Spren should be free to choose who they want to bond to. Is it a world of amazing technology, if the system is based on slavery of a population. With freedom will come even better technology. Instead of fabrials, we will have Knights Radiants!! Think of the glory!!

Spren can't choose. It takes a measure of intelligence to make a true choice. Except for a few unconfirmed cases, no spren has ever displayed the intelligence of an axehound, a chull, nor even a chicken!

Spren are only ever seen near the things they are attracted to or responsible for (depending on one's position in that debate). Let's say, for the sake of argument, that spren do possess some type of sentience, or even sapience. Who is to say spren aren't free to choose who or what they bond to? If gems attract spren, then (as I have said before) the spren must benefit in some way.

I don't see any outcry over the "imprisonment" of Stormlight within fabriels or gems. After all, what merchant or moneylender would want anything to threaten the vital service they offer when recharging dun spheres.

Anyway, on the Greatshell debate, I have reason to believe (though to proof) that they may be related to Thunderclasts and voidbinding. If that is the case then we should not be afraid to cull them. Take Chull's for example. They seem docile, and we really on them for pulling great weights, but if suddenly some force was able to change them, make them hateful, then they would be deadly. Think of the parshmen/parshendi/voidbringer relation.

Innocent until proven guilty. It seems strange that a civilized and progressive man such as yourself would forget such a basic concept.

[Stormblessed]

If you want an intelligent spren, look at Syl, or the truthspren that follow Shallan around.

We have suspicion, and that is enough to tell us that we must at least take precautions. We should at least phase out the use of parshmen and chull's to protect us from any unexpected revolution. In addition, we have our cheif researcher (Jasnah) building evidence to support our case. It will not be long before we have proof to decide whether they are guilty or not.

A civilised man must still be wise. Just because we believe in innocence before guilt, doesn't mean we can't be cautious.

[Omelethead]

Sorry, I was speaking in-world. Other than the Horneaters and now Kaladin (possibly Bridge 4), no one believes spren are intelligent.

And I would point out that it wasn't until Syl was bonded to Kaladin for a while that she really achieved sapience. So perhaps bonding spren with fabriels and gems helps them to grow and evolve.

If you want an intelligent spren, look at Syl, or the truthspren that follow Shallan around.

We have suspicion, and that is enough to tell us that we must at least take precautions. We should at least phase out the use of parshmen and chull's to protect us from any unexpected revolution. In addition, we have our cheif researcher (Jasnah) building evidence to support our case. It will not be long before we have proof to decide whether they are guilty or not.

And what would they do with the Parshmen and Chulls? They couldn't survive on their own. Investigation is needed, and precautions should be taken, but they can't just be phased out and abandoned.

A civilised man must still be wise. Just because we believe in innocence before guilt, doesn't mean we can't be cautious.

Very true. But killing off all the chasmfiends or chulls or parshmen/Parshendi, just in case, is far beyond being cautious.

[Castleguard]

Reading this I just thought of something.

I think there should be 2 classifications of Spren. Intelligent spren those who have a direct role in magics such as surgebinding. And all other Spren which I believe more or less are not intelligent. Furthermore I say that Fabrial science as known now is most likely only using the more common Spren. It seems that most people don't even have knowledge of the more powerful spren which the magic systems are based on. If this is true then perhaps a more intelligent spren such as an honor spren could make a more powerful fabrial then is now known.

My guess as of right now are there are 10 special spren that are above all other spren which would be the common spren.
Could it be possible that these 10 spren that are above all others are used to make sharblades? This would make a shardblade an even greater evil as spren such as honorspren are self aware. Is it possible that these spren willingly sacrificed themselves to stop the voidbringers? If this is so could it be that a spren would see the blatant misuse of sharblades to kill humans as a great sin and tragedy. Perhaps the greatest sin against the spren is the misuse of shardblades.

Forgive my wild theories but it sure is fun to come up with this stuff.

[Stormblessed]

Which is exactly why I made this post. 

I like your idea, but extending it, I remember reading a post about the spren of Heralds. Some people have theorised that Heralds have 'superspren', even more powerful than intelligent spren. Remember that large spren that Axies the Collector saw in Kasitor. There is definitely something strange happening there. Why do we get a spen who is enormous, but likely one of its kind, yet at the other time get thousands of tiny spren?

[cromptj]

Probably to balance out the material that was used to create the spren 1 giant one 1000s tiny of ones. Or maybe, following those people who measured spren, someone had defined it so that it stayed the same size and always appeared at the same time.

[Omelethead]

Probably to balance out the material that was used to create the spren 1 giant one 1000s tiny of ones. Or maybe, following those people who measured spren, someone had defined it so that it stayed the same size and always appeared at the same time.

That's interesting. I wonder if a long time ago, some random fisherman made up a story about the bay (or just exaggerated a story), about a giant wave-like spren, and over the years, as people moved into the bay, and the details and story got fleshed out, the spren was locked into the same size and routine. Heck, maybe the fisherman saw a huge wave, and enough mystery and folklore got attached to the story a spren popped up.

I wonder how many spren got assigned to their object/force/emotion because people expected them to be tied to it, and so they "measured" it. Maybe that's why intoxicationspren are inconsistent. Whats-his-name hasn't worked everything out or spread the word.

[Stormblessed]

Self-fulfilling prophecy 

[cromptj]

I think most of the spren (ie not the "superspren") are the spiritual embodiment of physical world concepts and objects. Maybe, because most people think that the spren are splinters of the Almighty's shard, the spren are somehow related to the creation of roshar. ie the Almighty reated it and the power he used is still attuned to the planet.

[Erunion]

Probably to balance out the material that was used to create the spren 1 giant one 1000s tiny of ones. Or maybe, following those people who measured spren, someone had defined it so that it stayed the same size and always appeared at the same time.

That's interesting. I wonder if a long time ago, some random fisherman made up a story about the bay (or just exaggerated a story), about a giant wave-like spren, and over the years, as people moved into the bay, and the details and story got fleshed out, the spren was locked into the same size and routine. Heck, maybe the fisherman saw a huge wave, and enough mystery and folklore got attached to the story a spren popped up.

I wonder how many spren got assigned to their object/force/emotion because people expected them to be tied to it, and so they "measured" it. Maybe that's why intoxicationspren are inconsistent. Whats-his-name hasn't worked everything out or spread the word.

Keep in mind, the Spren Studiers proved that you had to actually observe and measure the spren. Just writing down a random number didn't work. So at one point that superspren did all the actions that it does now, and someone wrote it down. And now it's stuck. 

[Omelethead]

Keep in mind, the Spren Studiers proved that you had to actually observe and measure the spren. Just writing down a random number didn't work. So at one point that superspren did all the actions that it does now, and someone wrote it down. And now it's stuck. 

True. Which means the original story or tale probably did have some seed of truth. But the exact nature and details about this superspren almost have to come from it being expected and measured.

[Castleguard]

I wonder if Hoid measured the super spren.

Also if it is a set pattern then it seems like you would have had to measure the spren 2x. This way you could have the amount of time that passes between the two appearances as part of your measurement. Then having been measured that way it would continue to repeat every time at the same time.

In fact this could be another way to use spren. Hmm Spren must go somewhere else when they are not in the physical world. I wonder if you could give something to a spren to hide. If you had already made and recorded an observation of a spren appearing more then once could you then give something to the spren and make a second record of what you gave the spren. This way if you know when the spren will appear you could get back what ever you gave to the spren.