Author Topic: WOK: Navani's Notebook Translation *MAJOR SPOILERS*  (Read 24958 times)

kain243

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Re: WOK: Navani's Notebook Translation *MAJOR SPOILERS*
« Reply #105 on: October 11, 2010, 02:48:09 PM »
AWESOME THREAD!  It would be very cool to see the notbook pages translated in "key form".   I love the key you made, its very pretty!

Harakeke

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Re: WOK: Navani's Notebook Translation *MAJOR SPOILERS*
« Reply #106 on: October 11, 2010, 09:07:57 PM »
I posted some scans of the Navani pages with English-translation overlays on the Stormlight Archive Wiki
(I'd consider this to fall under the comment/scholarship provisions of fair use -- but if it causes copyright problems, let me know and I'll remove them.)

jkincaid

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Re: WOK: Navani's Notebook Translation *MAJOR SPOILERS*
« Reply #107 on: October 12, 2010, 05:23:15 AM »
Ok I can't read through 8 pages to find out what all the discussion was here, however, I just had to say holy crap someone actually took the time to read through it all and translate it.  Wow, that's awesome.   ;)

Troubadour

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Re: WOK: Navani's Notebook Translation *MAJOR SPOILERS*
« Reply #108 on: January 24, 2011, 10:13:27 PM »
Oh, Lord. Apologies for the necropost, but there needs to be a tutorial on how to write in Alethi now. This thread is pure gold.

Melriken

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Re: WOK: Navani's Notebook Translation *MAJOR SPOILERS*
« Reply #109 on: January 24, 2011, 11:19:26 PM »
Oh, Lord. Apologies for the necropost, but there needs to be a tutorial on how to write in Alethi now. This thread is pure gold.
What do you mean? how to form the characters with a pen? Because it is English, just with a different letter set.

as posted earlier:


If you are wondering how to form the letters with a Pen, I would suggest:
the vowels start at the front, move to the top, then the bottom
The 'Left Point' letters start at the top, move down/left then down/right then up
The 'Right Point' letters start at the top, move down/right then down/left then up
The 'Diamond' letters start at the top, move down/left then down/right then jump back to the top and move down/right then down/left
And of course the 'Fancy' letters  at the top, move down/left then down/right then up

If you want to do it with a Calligraphy pen instead of a Felt Tip or Ball Point Pen you will need to alter the strokes, any time I said to go up, instead jump to the top and make a downward stroke, also you will need to alter your grip between the top and bottom halves of the 'fancy' character.  I wouldn't suggest using a Calligraphy Pen for this letter set.


Argent

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Re: WOK: Navani's Notebook Translation *MAJOR SPOILERS*
« Reply #110 on: January 25, 2011, 05:15:59 AM »
Excellently done. Once again I am more than a little impressed by both the depth of Brandon's worldbuilding, and the dedication of his fans. And here I thought he couldn't have surprised me any more in the novels I have read multiple times already...
Power doesn't always have to corrupt. In many ways, it can change a man for the better.

Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: WOK: Navani's Notebook Translation *MAJOR SPOILERS*
« Reply #111 on: January 26, 2011, 05:50:37 PM »
Actually, if you're writing it, all of the letters start in the middle. You draw the center line with your pen and never lift it up. Letters are written from left center to top to bottom to left center to right center, except for SZNShH, which is written from left center to right center to top to bottom to right center.
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Melriken

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Re: WOK: Navani's Notebook Translation *MAJOR SPOILERS*
« Reply #112 on: January 27, 2011, 07:18:16 PM »
Actually, if you're writing it, all of the letters start in the middle. You draw the center line with your pen and never lift it up. Letters are written from left center to top to bottom to left center to right center, except for SZNShH, which is written from left center to right center to top to bottom to right center.
How would the Vowels work under that?

stroke up and slightly right
double stroke down
stroke up (right on top of an existing line)
slight stroke left (to finish the centerline)
stroke right to reach next character and be carefule to re-trace the existing center line?

The Hash modifiers have similar problems of being careful to re-trace existing lines without being visible.

I can see 'school' teaching you to write with one continuous line as you suggest, but I can't see anyone actually doing it in real writing that way. Writing would look way better if you didn't force a single line as you can get ends (like the bottom of a vowel) to taper off to a point (as seen in the examples we have) and the center line will be much straighter and better looking.  Considering that Writing is considered an art form I really doubt that people actually practice it the way you describe (writing in cursive, all one motion).  It just has too many sharp points and too few rounded edges.

Edit: Yes I understand that you helped make the language, I am not trying to say you are wrong, just discuss the language.

Argent

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Re: WOK: Navani's Notebook Translation *MAJOR SPOILERS*
« Reply #113 on: January 28, 2011, 12:22:35 AM »
Going back to one of the questions regarding the font... We know you have it and don't plan on releasing it, but how do you feel about a fan-made version? It will likely use scanned images with slight modifications to look better.
Power doesn't always have to corrupt. In many ways, it can change a man for the better.

Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: WOK: Navani's Notebook Translation *MAJOR SPOILERS*
« Reply #114 on: January 28, 2011, 12:41:46 AM »
There is no existing center line when you start. And the part where you say "slight stroke left (to finish the centerline)" is not done; Harakeke's image is wrong. The upstroke on the vowels is not technically part of the letter forms; it's just this particular person's handwriting. There's just as likely to be an upstroke at the end of writing a vowel, but it's best to avoid either one to maintain symmetry and to avoid confusion with the other letters.

Some people may produce letter forms that are more rounded or loopy, but this is considered bad penmanship.

Also, there's no prohibition on fonts except they shouldn't be commercial.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 12:49:32 AM by Peter Ahlstrom »
All Saiyuki fans should check out Dazzle! Emotionally wrenching action-adventure and quirky humor! (At least read chapter 6 and tell me if you're not hooked.) Volume 10 out now!

CabbyHat

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Re: WOK: Navani's Notebook Translation *MAJOR SPOILERS*
« Reply #115 on: January 28, 2011, 01:22:28 AM »
Actually, if you're writing it, all of the letters start in the middle. You draw the center line with your pen and never lift it up. Letters are written from left center to top to bottom to left center to right center, except for SZNShH, which is written from left center to right center to top to bottom to right center.
How would the Vowels work under that?

stroke up and slightly right
double stroke down
stroke up (right on top of an existing line)
slight stroke left (to finish the centerline)
stroke right to reach next character and be carefule to re-trace the existing center line?

The Hash modifiers have similar problems of being careful to re-trace existing lines without being visible.

I can see 'school' teaching you to write with one continuous line as you suggest, but I can't see anyone actually doing it in real writing that way. Writing would look way better if you didn't force a single line as you can get ends (like the bottom of a vowel) to taper off to a point (as seen in the examples we have) and the center line will be much straighter and better looking.  Considering that Writing is considered an art form I really doubt that people actually practice it the way you describe (writing in cursive, all one motion).  It just has too many sharp points and too few rounded edges.

Edit: Yes I understand that you helped make the language, I am not trying to say you are wrong, just discuss the language.
Too many sharp points to be artistic? I disagree. I see the Alethi as having a very different aesthetic from us, based far more heavily on symmetry and with other differences. Who's to say their art couldn't feature more dramatic points and angles? That's one of the things I find most fascinating about creating other cultures and worlds; they simply don't have to adhere to a lot of things that we take as a given. :)
Just an idle comment. My comments are often idle. I can never get them to do any solid work.

Melriken

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Re: WOK: Navani's Notebook Translation *MAJOR SPOILERS*
« Reply #116 on: January 28, 2011, 01:41:26 AM »
Too many sharp points to be artistic?
No, Too many sharp points to be written as a single continuous line without lifting the pen, and it is more the Vowels that have that problem (changes in direction aren't a problem, it is the re-tracing over previous lines that starts causing issue where you break the artistic quality of the piece because of failure to exactly re-trace your previous stroke).

CabbyHat

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Re: WOK: Navani's Notebook Translation *MAJOR SPOILERS*
« Reply #117 on: January 28, 2011, 06:22:52 AM »
Too many sharp points to be artistic?
No, Too many sharp points to be written as a single continuous line without lifting the pen, and it is more the Vowels that have that problem (changes in direction aren't a problem, it is the re-tracing over previous lines that starts causing issue where you break the artistic quality of the piece because of failure to exactly re-trace your previous stroke).
And that's what makes writing an art form! Something doesn't stop being an art just because it's difficult.
Just an idle comment. My comments are often idle. I can never get them to do any solid work.

Melriken

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Re: WOK: Navani's Notebook Translation *MAJOR SPOILERS*
« Reply #118 on: January 28, 2011, 09:03:55 AM »
Too many sharp points to be artistic?
No, Too many sharp points to be written as a single continuous line without lifting the pen, and it is more the Vowels that have that problem (changes in direction aren't a problem, it is the re-tracing over previous lines that starts causing issue where you break the artistic quality of the piece because of failure to exactly re-trace your previous stroke).
And that's what makes writing an art form! Something doesn't stop being an art just because it's difficult.
So there are two ways to do something.  Both yield identical results such that once the thing is done you can't tell how it was done.

Way A takes 20 minutes and requires extreme effort.
Way B takes 3 minutes and requires almost no effort.

Way A is considered the 'correct' way, but literally has NO practical difference other then taking 17 minutes longer (it isn't safer, less accident prone, or in any way actually better).

In a real world application, given 100 people want to accomplish the task and no one will ever know which way they choose to accomplish it.  How many people do you think will choose way A and how many will choose way B?

My point is that 90+ people will do it Way B.

To ask the question another way.

You go to the store and buy 20 cans of soup for your brother (or sister or wife or husband or son or etc).  As you check out the sales attendant tells you that when you unload your car the correct way is to pick on one can with your right hand and carry it into the house, then go back for the next can, and to carefully carry only one can at a time, and always in your right hand into the house making sure to lock your car and close all the doors (while your car is in the closed garage).

Would you (A) follow the attendant's advice or (B) leave the cans in the paper bag and carry them all in in one trip, then unload them once you are in the house.

Peter Ahlstrom

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Re: WOK: Navani's Notebook Translation *MAJOR SPOILERS*
« Reply #119 on: January 30, 2011, 07:06:11 AM »
You've exaggerating and overstating the difficulty and time required to write according to the prescribed manner.
All Saiyuki fans should check out Dazzle! Emotionally wrenching action-adventure and quirky humor! (At least read chapter 6 and tell me if you're not hooked.) Volume 10 out now!