WOK: Odium (Spoilers)

[sdelu]

Something we see in Mistborn is that the shards (Preservation and Ruin) function according to their name.  Well, duh.  As such, it only makes sense that Odium would work in a similar way.  Thus, looking at the definition of odium we find:

o·di·um
–noun
1.
intense hatred or dislike, esp. toward a person or thing regarded as contemptible, despicable, or repugnant.
2.
the reproach, discredit, or opprobrium attaching to something hated or repugnant: He had to bear the odium of neglecting his family.
3.
the state or quality of being hated.

The first definition seems the most relevant to a story.  Thus,in order to find the influence of Odium on the current world of Roshar, we would have to find instances of hate or dislike.  And, in fact, the world of Roshar is riddled with it already.  As such, there is probably some merit in discussing the various hates/dislikes we have seen.

Here are some of the bigger ones I have noticed:

1) Darkeyes hate the Lighteyes, and vice versa.
2) Szeth begins to hate those he kills (does his shard have anything to do with this?)
3) Alethi get the "Thrill" which makes them revel in death and killing.  They seem to truly hate those they slaughter...
4) Many people dislike/hate the Parshmen  (not just the Parshendi)
5) The people hate the Radiants
6) The highprinces hate each other, and especially hate those who show signs of weakness

And who isn't hated?
Well... mostly Shardbearers, it seems.  Odd, that.

I'm not sure if there's really anything to these just yet, and half the list seems like a pretty weak correlation, but I have a feeling that Odium has his hands in many pies already.  I think the biggest one worth looking at is the Thrill, as we already have conflict between Dalinar and the Thrill. Also, the hate between lighteyes and darkeyes seems important, and certainly seems as if it is something that has been brought about recently (in Dalinar's visions it seems they are of equal rank).

Really, I'm just looking for a way to find out just what influence Odium has.  If "Odium reigns" then we should be able to find something, no?

Is it as simple as the strife between the Alethi and Parshendi, Taravangian and his "pals," and the Ghostblood (or whatever they're called)?

[happyman]

The world is covered with war because Odium reigns.  That much seems clear.  It seems to me that somehow, Odium is touching the entire world.  I found it telling that there is less war in the West than the East.  This seems like a significant hint as to how he is touching the world.

Possibilities I can see:
(1) He has tainted the Highstorms.
(2) He has tainted the Shardblades and Shardplates, and there are more of those in the East.  This probably would be caused at least partly by the thrill.
(3) It's a general touch that some groups are more susceptible to.

I've even wondered if the Knight Radiants gave up their Shards because they had become tainted.  Certainly the scene Dalinar saw of that day had hatred running rampant, although cause and effect (especially with massive wealth involved) could be hard to untangle.

[sdelu]

It does make a certain amount of sense that it is somehow linked to the Highstorms.

The only problem I have with Odium being in "control" of the Highstorms is the...face...telling Kaladin that "Odium reigns."  Now unless the face man is somehow trapped within the Highstorms or something.... But either way, they're getting stronger, and there's something to them for sure.

(I wonder if there's anything to the whole Jezrien/Stormfather connection)

As for the Shardblades/Shardplates, well, there does seem to be something about them. Maybe without the glyphs or without Stormlight they can't be properly wielded?

I had a thought that maybe the Knights Radiant "betrayed" mankind because they were abandoned by their spren (assuming that spren are 100% necessary for magic).  One of the epigraphs (pg 48) states:

"Ten orders.  We were loved, once.  Why have you forsaken us, Almighty!  Shard of my soul, where have you gone?"

I'm almost leaning towards the "shard of my soul" being the spren.  Considering that they form a bond, with human and spren almost becoming as one, and the spren are (if i remember) explained almost as being the souls of things...hm.   We know that Syl and (presumably) other spren dislike the Shardblades, and we know that Dalinar felt a great sense of loss and betrayal when the Radiants gave up their shards.

Of course, this could have been when the Almighty was slain as well, and somehow Odium tainted the shards with his death.  I mean, we don't get any visions of events after the Recreance, save the Almighty's prediction, so maybe they felt his power wane?

Maybe some combination of both?  Either way, Odium had to have been involved here somehow...

[rjl]

Maybe the radiants in some way worked directly with the almighty and things went wrong for them after odium killed him?

[sdelu]

That's possible.  But really, there is some sense of a great betrayal.  What could that be?

Could that simply be the Almighty dying,  or maybe the betrayal was the tainting of the Shards? (assuming they ARE tainted at all, and Kaladin and Syl's distrust of them is not just a red herring.  I mean, it's possible that Syl just inherited Kaladin's dislike of them, isn't it?).  They could have been losing their magic, or they could have discovered the same disgust at slaughtering people that Dalinar begins to feel.

There are lots of reasons for it, but I don't think that the Knights Radiant betrayed mankind before they were somehow betrayed (or led to feel betrayed) in turn.

[ryos]

I find the manner of the Radiants' betrayal to be quite telling. They didn't just walk away—they made a statement. We will have nothing to do with you any more. Who lost honor, the Knights, or the rest of humanity?

I believe that vision happened after the Heralds called it quits. After "The Enemy" (probably Rayse/Odium) stopped sending his minions to cause desolations, for some unknown reason (perhaps to gather steam for the Final Desolation?). When we see the Knights, they fight smoke monsters and protect people. I get the impression the Knights didn't used to fight people. Yet, the comments of soldiers in Firestone Keep about them being needed on "the front lines" make me think the people had been using the Radiants to fight their wars, man against man, and that the Radiants got fed up with that.

What place does an organization founded on absolute honor for the purpose of protecting a united humanity against the forces of Odium have in a world where the Voidbringers rise up no longer? I don't think it was Odium's taint that drove the Radiants away. I think it was the absence thereof.

[sdelu]

I find the manner of the Radiants' betrayal to be quite telling. They didn't just walk away—they made a statement. We will have nothing to do with you any more. Who lost honor, the Knights, or the rest of humanity?

I believe that vision happened after the Heralds called it quits. After "The Enemy" (probably Rayse/Odium) stopped sending his minions to cause desolations, for some unknown reason (perhaps to gather steam for the Final Desolation?). When we see the Knights, they fight smoke monsters and protect people. I get the impression the Knights didn't used to fight people. Yet, the comments of soldiers in Firestone Keep about them being needed on "the front lines" make me think the people had been using the Radiants to fight their wars, man against man, and that the Radiants got fed up with that.

What place does an organization founded on absolute honor for the purpose of protecting a united humanity against the forces of Odium have in a world where the Voidbringers rise up no longer? I don't think it was Odium's taint that drove the Radiants away. I think it was the absence thereof.

That's a good point.  I suppose if the Heralds convinced everyone that they had finally won, there would be no reason for the Knights Radiant to stand and fight wars between men. You're right--for an order founded to protect humankind, being forced to fight wars between men would certainly push them over the edge. And that fits right in with leaving the soldiers to kill each other over the Shards right after abandoning them.

But is that a big enough betrayal to cause the Knights Radiant to betray man in turn?  They could have just stopped fighting.  I think there was something bigger that caused it, something from the Almighty or the Heralds or the spren, not just from man.

[ryos]

I find the manner of the Radiants' betrayal to be quite telling. They didn't just walk away—they made a statement. We will have nothing to do with you any more. Who lost honor, the Knights, or the rest of humanity?

I believe that vision happened after the Heralds called it quits. After "The Enemy" (probably Rayse/Odium) stopped sending his minions to cause desolations, for some unknown reason (perhaps to gather steam for the Final Desolation?). When we see the Knights, they fight smoke monsters and protect people. I get the impression the Knights didn't used to fight people. Yet, the comments of soldiers in Firestone Keep about them being needed on "the front lines" make me think the people had been using the Radiants to fight their wars, man against man, and that the Radiants got fed up with that.

What place does an organization founded on absolute honor for the purpose of protecting a united humanity against the forces of Odium have in a world where the Voidbringers rise up no longer? I don't think it was Odium's taint that drove the Radiants away. I think it was the absence thereof.

That's a good point.  I suppose if the Heralds convinced everyone that they had finally won, there would be no reason for the Knights Radiant to stand and fight wars between men. You're right--for an order founded to protect humankind, being forced to fight wars between men would certainly push them over the edge. And that fits right in with leaving the soldiers to kill each other over the Shards right after abandoning them.

But is that a big enough betrayal to cause the Knights Radiant to betray man in turn?  They could have just stopped fighting.  I think there was something bigger that caused it, something from the Almighty or the Heralds or the spren, not just from man.

Could they have "just stopped fighting"? What does that mean to an organization that exists to fight? No matter how you look at it, refusing to fight would mean the end of the order. And if they retained the power of the shards, tried to keep Urithiru going, you have to imagine that some warlord or other would come against them. They'd be forced to fight again, only they'd be an army of 300 Shardbearers against all of humanity.

Those aren't great odds. As we saw many times, a Shardbearer can be overwhelmed by sheer numbers. Pulling one down is extremely costly, but it can be done.

[Wolpertinger]

Could they have "just stopped fighting"? What does that mean to an organization that exists to fight? No matter how you look at it, refusing to fight would mean the end of the order. And if they retained the power of the shards, tried to keep Urithiru going, you have to imagine that some warlord or other would come against them. They'd be forced to fight again, only they'd be an army of 300 Shardbearers against all of humanity.

Those aren't great odds. As we saw many times, a Shardbearer can be overwhelmed by sheer numbers. Pulling one down is extremely costly, but it can be done.

Supposedly a 'modern' Shardbearer is a pale imitation of a single Knight, though - and if they knew how to fight in formation as well as using whatever magic they had? And considering before the knights disbanded no one but them had Shardplate or Shardblades? That's a huge advantage - The formations would prevent them from being individually overwhelmed, too. I could imagine them easily standing against a human army many times their size.

[Random112]

I don't think that Odium has necessarily tainted the shardblades since when Dalinar saw them abandoned they immediately lost their glow. I think the abandoning of them is what made them less; they were not being wielded by those bonded to spren. They retain some of their power but can't be fully utilized unless the user is bonded to a spren.

While Szeth says that his powers don't function correctly in shardplate, could this be because A) he doesn't know how to properly use his power in the plate? perhaps instead of needing gemstones to power it he needs only his own power? B) perhaps they don't function correctly because the shardplate wasn't made by or for him?

A question I would pose is: Why don't we see Szeth with a spren? Is she still hiding from Szeth like Syl did with Kaladin for a time ( not hiding but rather, not revealing her intelligence? ) ? It seems to me like Kaladan always had powers years before he even paid any attention to Syl, but they became boosted when he bonded with her. Perhaps Szeth just hasn't bonded with a spren yet?

The world is covered with war because Odium reigns.  That much seems clear.  It seems to me that somehow, Odium is touching the entire world.  I found it telling that there is less war in the West than the East.  This seems like a significant hint as to how he is touching the world.

Possibilities I can see:
(1) He has tainted the Highstorms.
(2) He has tainted the Shardblades and Shardplates, and there are more of those in the East.  This probably would be caused at least partly by the thrill.
(3) It's a general touch that some groups are more susceptible to.

I've even wondered if the Knight Radiants gave up their Shards because they had become tainted.  Certainly the scene Dalinar saw of that day had hatred running rampant, although cause and effect (especially with massive wealth involved) could be hard to untangle.