Author Topic: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)  (Read 8426 times)

ErikHolmes

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Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2010, 06:13:29 AM »
Its the shardplate that makes you into a lighteyes, not the blade. The Radiants all had almost white eyes because their shardplate was so much better.

I just assumed that lighteyes are in charge because they are the decedents of the people who first go their hands on the radiants shardplate.

So:

1. Radiants abandon their shardplate.
2. The shardplate stops glowing as brightly as it once did, almost immediately after being discarded by the Radiants. Is this because they discarded it or because of some outside influence?
3. The shardplate is picked up by random people who then become lighteyes. The people with shardplate quickly take over control of society and their decedents (who'd inherited their lighteyes) become the local ruling class.

None of the Heralds we've seen so far have used shardplate. Neither Kalak and Jezrien or Talenel used shardplate.

As for Dalinar, I think his trip to seek out the old magic is what made him the Blackthorn, the greatest warrior of his time. Hell, the name Blackthorn just sounds like something you'd associate with old magic.

The Dalinar chapters often talk about the Blackthorn being an unstoppable force, death itself. And maybe he is.
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Kierlionn

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Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2010, 07:34:47 AM »
Normally having a shardblade automatically made you a light eyes. But as we can see from Szeth, this is not always the case. Szeth's eyes only change colour when he summons the blade. And Taln's eyes seem to be permanently dark. Yet I seem to recall a part (I think it is of Dalinar's vision of the radiants giving up their swords and armour) where the radients eyes were almost white.

So it is really hard to work out what is happening with the lighteyes.

I don't think it meant becoming a light eye literally but more social status wise.

Munin

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Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2010, 01:41:12 PM »
I don't think it meant becoming a light eye literally but more social status wise.
That's not the impression I got. According to Kaladin (in one of the flashbacks to when he was growing up):
Quote from: Way of Kings, page 252
If a man wins a Shardblade on the battlefield, his eyes become light.

And the context of that quote makes it fairly clear that's something very different than simply gaining the social status of a lighteyes by marrying one.

I have no idea why Szeth's eyes aren't always light, though. Maybe he didn't win his Shardblade in battle? It's possible that makes a difference.
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happyman

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Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2010, 02:35:14 PM »
On Shallan's shardblade, here's the most complete quote we have on how Shallan got the darn thing:

Quote
Before she could consciously think of what she was doing, she was struggling with her sleeve, trying to get the Soulcaster out. It was the only thing she had resembling a weapon. No, that was stupid. She didn’t know how to use it. She was helpless.
Except…
Storms! she thought, frantic. I can’t use that. I promised myself.
She began the process anyway. Ten heartbeats, to bring forth the fruit of her sin, the proceeds of her most horrific act.

Emphasis added.

Notice especially how that last bit, the terms "fruit of her sin" and "proceeds of her most horrific act" are parallel to each other and are used to strengthen each other.

Here are some definitions:

Fruit
Definition 3b : the effect or consequence of an action or operation : product, result <the fruits of our labor>

Proceeds:
1 : the total amount brought in <the proceeds of a sale>
2 : the net amount received (as for a check or from an insurance settlement) after deduction of any discount or charges

So unless the dictionary and my basic reading skills have evaporated, Shallan is saying that she owns the blade because of the most terrible thing she ever did.  If she hadn't done the terrible action, she wouldn't have the blade.

So I would appreciate it if those of you who believe that she didn't get it as a result of killing her father would explain this.  You'll have to somehow make a case that she's not referring to her fathers murder when she talks about her most horrific act, or... well, I don't see any other options, but I could be wrong.  I'll admit that the broken fabrial is an odd point, but I can't see it overthrowing the basic meaning of the words explicitly used when we know so little about how it broke.
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Kierlionn

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Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2010, 03:28:01 PM »
I don't think it meant becoming a light eye literally but more social status wise.
That's not the impression I got. According to Kaladin (in one of the flashbacks to when he was growing up):
Quote from: Way of Kings, page 252
If a man wins a Shardblade on the battlefield, his eyes become light.

And the context of that quote makes it fairly clear that's something very different than simply gaining the social status of a lighteyes by marrying one.

I have no idea why Szeth's eyes aren't always light, though. Maybe he didn't win his Shardblade in battle? It's possible that makes a difference.

It could be possible that is has been slightly mangled by rumors, as we know Szeth's eyes only go light when he summons it, because probably next to none of the darkeye population has a shardblade except on a rare occasion it is possible that it has just been twisted around like hearsay normally is, the only reason I think that is because I don't recall anyone having a firsthand account of a darkeye becoming a lighteye and it is something so rare that it could easily get twisted around.

Tasslehoof

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Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2010, 04:20:16 PM »
I stand corrected, it appears I totally missed the subtle hints that she possessed a blade.  Does anyone have chapters, or better yet pages with the quotes?  I'd like to reread those parts, but I don't want to wade through the rest of the book at this point in time.

Sorry if I came off as harsh, I was so convinced that she didn't have a shardblade that I didn't even think that anything she said was hinting at it.

Also, she is the first female character, other than some of the Radiants in Dalinar's visions, that has a shardblade right?  I didn't miss a bunch of stuff did I? D:
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Cheese Ninja

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Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2010, 05:09:31 PM »
I don't think it meant becoming a light eye literally but more social status wise.
That's not the impression I got. According to Kaladin (in one of the flashbacks to when he was growing up):
Quote from: Way of Kings, page 252
If a man wins a Shardblade on the battlefield, his eyes become light.

And the context of that quote makes it fairly clear that's something very different than simply gaining the social status of a lighteyes by marrying one.

I have no idea why Szeth's eyes aren't always light, though. Maybe he didn't win his Shardblade in battle? It's possible that makes a difference.

It could be possible that is has been slightly mangled by rumors, as we know Szeth's eyes only go light when he summons it, because probably next to none of the darkeye population has a shardblade except on a rare occasion it is possible that it has just been twisted around like hearsay normally is, the only reason I think that is because I don't recall anyone having a firsthand account of a darkeye becoming a lighteye and it is something so rare that it could easily get twisted around.

I agree with you on the characters getting the facts mixed up.  Also, I recall Szeth mentioning that it was a special characteristic of his blade.
Quote
The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale—almost glowing—sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon.
Here's what Kaladin thought:
Quote
If he took that Blade, he’d become one of them. His eyes would even change, if the stories were right. Though the Blade glistened in the light, clean of the murders it had performed, for a moment it seemed red to him.
I don't think we've seen any indication at all that shardplate will change your eye color.
When Teft gives the recuperating Kaladin the diamond spheres while he's recuperating:
Quote
Kaladin’s eyes snapped open, and they leaked light too, faintly colored amber.
Not sure if the it's the light or the eyes that are amber in that sentence.
Edit: found some more useful quotes from Dalinar's flashback.
Quote
The Shardbearer stood with his Blade resting on his armored shoulder, and he inspected Dalinar with eyes of such bright blue, they were almost white. Were those eyes actually glowing, leaking Stormlight? His skin was dark brown, like a Makabaki, and he had short black curly hair. His armor no longer glowed, though one large symbol—emblazoned across the front of the breastplate—still gave off a faint blue light.
  If the armor glows blue/sapphire, are they always a Windrunner?
Quote
The woman had light tan eyes that almost seemed to glow in the night, and she wore no helm.
...The female Shardbearer stood; her armor glowed with an even amber light. She smiled and turned to the side, a Shardblade forming from mist into her hand as she rushed to aid her companion.

Happyman, you're entirely too hung up on the meanings of those two words.  Although I agree that her father is the most likely former owner of Shallan's shardblade, it's still possible that it had another source. I don't there's anything wrong with her calling it the "proceeds" of an act or "fruit" of her sin if she took it from her father and killed him with it, or killed him with it while stopping him from claiming it for himself for some reason.  But since you're pretty set in your viewpoint, why don't you go with this one: the shardblade fell out of the air after he died and cut through his coat.  He doesn't even have to be wearing the coat in that scenario, just needs it nearby.

The Shallan thread has most of the quotes where she mentioned the shardblade in it, but it's indicated as early as her third chapter in the book:
Quote
Memories attacked her. Nan Balat bruised, his coat torn. A long, silvery sword in her hand, sharp enough to cut stones as if they were water.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 06:50:57 PM by Cheese Ninja »

Stormblessed

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Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2010, 02:15:40 AM »
I don't think it meant becoming a light eye literally but more social status wise.
That's not the impression I got. According to Kaladin (in one of the flashbacks to when he was growing up):
Quote from: Way of Kings, page 252
If a man wins a Shardblade on the battlefield, his eyes become light.

And the context of that quote makes it fairly clear that's something very different than simply gaining the social status of a lighteyes by marrying one.

I have no idea why Szeth's eyes aren't always light, though. Maybe he didn't win his Shardblade in battle? It's possible that makes a difference.

It could be possible that is has been slightly mangled by rumors, as we know Szeth's eyes only go light when he summons it, because probably next to none of the darkeye population has a shardblade except on a rare occasion it is possible that it has just been twisted around like hearsay normally is, the only reason I think that is because I don't recall anyone having a firsthand account of a darkeye becoming a lighteye and it is something so rare that it could easily get twisted around.

I agree with you on the characters getting the facts mixed up.  Also, I recall Szeth mentioning that it was a special characteristic of his blade.
Quote
The moment he summoned his Blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale—almost glowing—sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon.
Here's what Kaladin thought:
Quote
If he took that Blade, he’d become one of them. His eyes would even change, if the stories were right. Though the Blade glistened in the light, clean of the murders it had performed, for a moment it seemed red to him.
I don't think we've seen any indication at all that shardplate will change your eye color.
When Teft gives the recuperating Kaladin the diamond spheres while he's recuperating:
Quote
Kaladin’s eyes snapped open, and they leaked light too, faintly colored amber.
Not sure if the it's the light or the eyes that are amber in that sentence.
Edit: found some more useful quotes from Dalinar's flashback.
Quote
The Shardbearer stood with his Blade resting on his armored shoulder, and he inspected Dalinar with eyes of such bright blue, they were almost white. Were those eyes actually glowing, leaking Stormlight? His skin was dark brown, like a Makabaki, and he had short black curly hair. His armor no longer glowed, though one large symbol—emblazoned across the front of the breastplate—still gave off a faint blue light.
  If the armor glows blue/sapphire, are they always a Windrunner?
Quote
The woman had light tan eyes that almost seemed to glow in the night, and she wore no helm.
...The female Shardbearer stood; her armor glowed with an even amber light. She smiled and turned to the side, a Shardblade forming from mist into her hand as she rushed to aid her companion.

Happyman, you're entirely too hung up on the meanings of those two words.  Although I agree that her father is the most likely former owner of Shallan's shardblade, it's still possible that it had another source. I don't there's anything wrong with her calling it the "proceeds" of an act or "fruit" of her sin if she took it from her father and killed him with it, or killed him with it while stopping him from claiming it for himself for some reason.  But since you're pretty set in your viewpoint, why don't you go with this one: the shardblade fell out of the air after he died and cut through his coat.  He doesn't even have to be wearing the coat in that scenario, just needs it nearby.

The Shallan thread has most of the quotes where she mentioned the shardblade in it, but it's indicated as early as her third chapter in the book:
Quote
Memories attacked her. Nan Balat bruised, his coat torn. A long, silvery sword in her hand, sharp enough to cut stones as if they were water.
Its possible that the light coloured eyes may have come from the stormlight, not the shardblade. But if that was the case, there would unlikely to be rumours about darkeyes turning light because some darkeyes would surely be able to win a blade, and then prove the theory wrong. And Szeths quote above implies that shardblades can turn the eyes light. However his swords unique ability can be taken both ways: only his sword turns his eyes light, or only his sword keeps his eyes dark until sword is summoned.
So either way it is impossible to tell.

I think its very likely that the shardblade was a result of killing Shallan's father. No other sin would be greater to Shallan than killing her own father.
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ErikHolmes

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Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2010, 02:26:51 AM »
Except it sounds like she didn't like her father much.

Maybe she did something even worse in order to get a shardblade to kill her father with? Maybe she did something that resulted in her family being in the trouble it is?

But that's a lot of maybe. You are all probably right and she killed her father and took the blade from him. I forgot about the pic of her father in a pool of blood.
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happyman

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Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2010, 05:30:25 PM »
Happyman, you're entirely too hung up on the meanings of those two words.  Although I agree that her father is the most likely former owner of Shallan's shardblade, it's still possible that it had another source. I don't there's anything wrong with her calling it the "proceeds" of an act or "fruit" of her sin if she took it from her father and killed him with it, or killed him with it while stopping him from claiming it for himself for some reason.  But since you're pretty set in your viewpoint, why don't you go with this one: the shardblade fell out of the air after he died and cut through his coat.  He doesn't even have to be wearing the coat in that scenario, just needs it nearby.

I guess how likely this is depends on how Shardblades respond to being held by someone who is not their owner.  Is it even possible to steal a shardblade?  If you grab it, do you claim it, or what?  These are good questions.

Call me pedantic, though, but I still feel that the words I cited are strong evidence in favor of the simplest scenario of Shallan killing her father through mundane means and then getting the blade.  This simple cause-effect relationship is well-established in-world and is one that Shallan would know about.  It agrees with the simplest interpretation of the image she made of her father.   Everything else requires introducing new rules or speculating well beyond the evidence or weakening the simple statement I cited as evidence (and yes, your proposed alternate interpretations are not impossible, just weaker, because they don't match the usual meaning of the words).  I just considered that quote the best evidence (it's really close to being the only evidence of what actually happened) and wanted it accounted for.

As for the fabrial---we don't know what happened to it.  And that's the rub-we don't know!  It's an empty spot.  But emptiness isn't evidence, just room for more speculation.

As for whether killing her father would be considered a terrible sin---well, a few points to consider:

(1) She calls herself a murderer when referring to her father's death.  No rationalizations behind that word.  The Spren accepts it, too.
(2) She reacts badly to the death of four people who were ready to rape and kill her, and whom she had never met.
(3) She feels tremendous guilt over her families situation and her place in it.
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Tasslehoof

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Re: WoK: Random Thoughts after reading (Spoilers)
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2010, 07:50:25 PM »

I guess how likely this is depends on how Shardblades respond to being held by someone who is not their owner.  Is it even possible to steal a shardblade?  If you grab it, do you claim it, or what?  These are good questions.

Call me pedantic, though, but I still feel that the words I cited are strong evidence in favor of the simplest scenario of Shallan killing her father through mundane means and then getting the blade.  This simple cause-effect relationship is well-established in-world and is one that Shallan would know about.  It agrees with the simplest interpretation of the image she made of her father.   Everything else requires introducing new rules or speculating well beyond the evidence or weakening the simple statement I cited as evidence (and yes, your proposed alternate interpretations are not impossible, just weaker, because they don't match the usual meaning of the words).  I just considered that quote the best evidence (it's really close to being the only evidence of what actually happened) and wanted it accounted for.

As for the fabrial---we don't know what happened to it.  And that's the rub-we don't know!  It's an empty spot.  But emptiness isn't evidence, just room for more speculation.

As for whether killing her father would be considered a terrible sin---well, a few points to consider:

(1) She calls herself a murderer when referring to her father's death.  No rationalizations behind that word.  The Spren accepts it, too.
(2) She reacts badly to the death of four people who were ready to rape and kill her, and whom she had never met.
(3) She feels tremendous guilt over her families situation and her place in it.

I agree with you 100%.  It seems very unlikely (although possible) that Shallan killed her father with the Shardblade.  Every quote we have about the events, which are very few and far between, give us evidence that she killed him in a "normal" fashion (blood pooling on the floor, doesn't happen if you're killed by a shardblade AND even if you slice someone up with one after they are dead, it still wouldn't be "pools" of blood).  Really the only thing that doesn't make a lot of sense is the breaking of the soulcaster itself.  It does sound like the shardblade cut the fabrial, but theres always other possibilities, obviously the shardblade cuts through everything easily, but other things can cut through a soulcaster as well.
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