Author Topic: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**  (Read 31426 times)

Harakeke

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Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #90 on: September 21, 2010, 06:10:27 AM »
Now that we know from the Navani translation page that spren are trapped in Soulcasters, what if the reason that Shallan attracted the transforming spren was because she freed it/them from the Soulcaster by accidentally breaking it?

The line-head spren have made a couple other appearances as well.
One of the death visions references a figure with a "head of lines", and I think there was also a passing mention of Elhokar  seeing squiggle-heads in the mirror -- possibly the cause of his assassination paranoia.  It's quite possible Gavilar saw them too -- right around when he started acting strangely.

I suspect that they're a "natural phenomena" related to Shadesmar and the transactions involved with Soulcasting.

As far as the Shardblade -- There are a few examples of Shardbearers commanding their Blades to remain intact when they set them down.  This is generally not such a great thing do do because it's so risky -- anyone could just pick it up and stab you with it (like, for instance... a daughter who you have just driven to the brink of murderous rage?).
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 06:13:51 AM by Harakeke »

happyman

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Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #91 on: September 21, 2010, 02:51:51 PM »
Now that we know from the Navani translation page that spren are trapped in Soulcasters, what if the reason that Shallan attracted the transforming spren was because she freed it/them from the Soulcaster by accidentally breaking it?

The line-head spren have made a couple other appearances as well.
One of the death visions references a figure with a "head of lines", and I think there was also a passing mention of Elhokar  seeing squiggle-heads in the mirror -- possibly the cause of his assassination paranoia.  It's quite possible Gavilar saw them too -- right around when he started acting strangely.

I suspect that they're a "natural phenomena" related to Shadesmar and the transactions involved with Soulcasting.

As far as the Shardblade -- There are a few examples of Shardbearers commanding their Blades to remain intact when they set them down.  This is generally not such a great thing do do because it's so risky -- anyone could just pick it up and stab you with it (like, for instance... a daughter who you have just driven to the brink of murderous rage?).


This might actually work.  Having another person involved was a stretch I couldn't buy.  This is more likely.  But still, why would her picture of her father's death be so---prosaic, then?  A person lying in blood is shocking, yes, because someone has died.  It would be personally very meaningful to her.  But it's not particularly supernatural.

I also still have not seen a good explanation for why Shallan would refer to the blade as the fruit of her sin if she used it to commit the murder itself.  Would somebody please explain how they square this simple statement with the belief that the Shardblade was used to do the actual killing?  It alone makes me think that her father's death came first, and the Shardblade claiming second.  That's what the sentence means:  It implies a causal connection.
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tipbruley

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Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #92 on: September 21, 2010, 07:36:40 PM »
Richard fife's review on tor.com says that its implied she was a victim of sexual abuse.  Did any of you see a hint of that?

Didn't her Dad put her in the "Chasity" Calling? Maybe he didn't want anyone else to know he was tapping that!

Never

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Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #93 on: September 22, 2010, 09:59:07 PM »
Any subsequent blows after the initial death would have cut flesh, and she might have been flailing at him with it.

We get a description of someone being cut open after they died with a shardblade and we're explicitly told there's very little blood compared to conventional weapons.

I want to say that it's during Dalinar's assault on the Tower.

ryos

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Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #94 on: September 22, 2010, 10:03:56 PM »
Any subsequent blows after the initial death would have cut flesh, and she might have been flailing at him with it.

We get a description of someone being cut open after they died with a shardblade and we're explicitly told there's very little blood compared to conventional weapons.

I want to say that it's during Dalinar's assault on the Tower.


Naturally, the dead don't bleed like the living. There's no blood pressure in their veins.
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Erunion

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Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #95 on: September 23, 2010, 06:03:58 PM »
Not only do the dead have less blood pressure, the shardblade cuts too thinly. The sharper the blade, the smaller the wound. If a wound is very, very thin, blood will only seep out, as it simply doesn't have enough room to flow.

GeekMan

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Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #96 on: September 30, 2010, 06:37:01 PM »
Hey all, this is my first post here so if I'm out of line, please be gentle.   :)

I'm not too crazy about any of the current theories on Shallan's father's death and how she acquired a Shardblade so I'd like to present my own theory.

Based on Shallan's reaction to Jasnah's murder of the theives, and her complete aversion to any type of confrontation, it doesnt seem plausible to me that she has ever killed in the past, even by accident.  ESPECIALLY if she hed killed her father.  She seems too soft spoken, timid, distraught and emotional.  She didn't comprehend how someone could take another's life even when threatend by four knife-weilding brutes in a dark alley.  And all this even though she completely understands that "The men Jasnah had killed were terrible creatures, and she had little doubt that they would have killed her."  Plus, taking into account that she completely froze during the attack, remember she is described as being paralyzed with fear, how could she have attacked and killed her father?

My current theory is similar to some others here, in that I believe there is a third player in the death of her father.  We are all missing (or overlooking) some important aspects of what happened, but it's the best solution I can come up with.  Here's my thought on how it might have happened;

Ghostblood visitor is conversing secretly with father and possibly Nan Balat, perhaps trying to recover the lost Blade and Plate given to Helaran (which is another theory I believe is correct).  Meeting goes poorly and visitor decideds that Nan Balat might have the items (or perhaps just to coerce more info from Father) so he begins torturing Nan Balat for information or compliance.  This would explain the shattered leg and how near death/unconscious Nan Balat was.  Somehow able to get close to the visitor, Father uses the fabrial to change the visitor to smoke, but not before being fataly wounded.  Blade materializes, slicing fabrial, perhaps also killing father.

At some point during this event Shallan, hearing the commotion, enters.  Perhaps this was when Father had his chance to kill visitor, perhaps after Father had already vanquished him and been wounded.  Father orders her to give him the Blade, or give it to Nan Balat, or even perhaps for her to keep it.  She picks it up, the knowledge of it's use infuses her causing her to drop it, and it turns to mist.  Father slowly bleeds out his life while Shallan watches.  The important part is that Shallan sees her father dying and instead of helping him she stands by and lets him die.  Maybe the knowledge infusing her put her into shock, or perhaps she saw it as a way to end the family's torture.  Whatever the reason, she let him die and that's why the Blade is the fruit of her sins and something she never wants to use.

Right now, based on Shallan's current character, this is the only explanation that makes sense to me.
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Tasslehoof

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Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #97 on: September 30, 2010, 07:37:08 PM »
I realize that "any" scenario is possible when it comes to Shallan's killing of her father.. but really, do people honestly believe that there could be a more "heinous act" than murdering her own father?  She could barely stand up when she saw Jasnah kill street thugs who were probably going to rape and kill the two of them.  I don't think shes ever killed anyone other than her father.

I stand by the most likely scenario as, "Shallan kills her father, his shardblade appears, and she picks it up".
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RicksterBLM

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Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #98 on: September 30, 2010, 08:30:12 PM »
what if she used soul casting to kill her father, it uses blood, and he was covered in blood at the end.

GeekMan

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Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #99 on: September 30, 2010, 09:32:37 PM »
what if she used soul casting to kill her father, it uses blood, and he was covered in blood at the end.

From my understanding, she never used soulcasting before turning the goblet into blood so I don't think she could have killed her father using it.
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happyman

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Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #100 on: September 30, 2010, 10:34:40 PM »
I realize that "any" scenario is possible when it comes to Shallan's killing of her father.. but really, do people honestly believe that there could be a more "heinous act" than murdering her own father?  She could barely stand up when she saw Jasnah kill street thugs who were probably going to rape and kill the two of them.  I don't think shes ever killed anyone other than her father.

I stand by the most likely scenario as, "Shallan kills her father, his shardblade appears, and she picks it up".

Especially when she calls herself a murderer.  I seriously doubt she is stupid enough to think she could have done anything if he had been mortally wounded by someone else, and thus be a "murderer".
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Tasslehoof

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Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #101 on: September 30, 2010, 11:23:35 PM »
Plus, she doesn't start seeing the "Soulcasting Spren" until shes studying under Jasnah for a decent amount of time.
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KhyEllie

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Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #102 on: September 30, 2010, 11:58:17 PM »
I just read this entire thread and want to throw a few ideas out there.

1) has anyone considered that the person on the floor wasn't her father? I can't remember the scene, but if the guy isn't specifically considered 'dead', then it could even be Nan Balat.

2)I like the idea that Shallan picked up the blade by accident, but it also seems possible that she convinced her father to give her the Blade, which may have been an indirect cause of his death. Her father had a lot of enemies. This may have put him without a weapon when in need.

3)that brings up the soulcaster. Given what we now know about spren, I wonder if someone intentionally sheared the object in order to release the spren or at least render it useless for a future murder. I know that theory has a lot of holes in it since I'm not inclined to believe that a Shardbearer would bother cutting up a soulcaster for that reason.
-random point- did they find the sheared pieces of the soulcaster, or did those just decide to go off and vanish?

4) I can see the Ghostbloods killing members off for slight discrepancies. Her dad must have had a million opportunities to piss these guys off, so maybe he took one.

5)Shallan refers to herself maybe once as a murderer. But she says a lot of times that she's a traitor.
Quote
Considering what I've done before, she thought, this is nothing. It wouldn't be the first time she betrayed someone who trusted her.
Though I must point out, I'm not really sure why she'd classify her father as someone who trusted her. They weren't the tightest-knit group.

6)I'm not a fan of the idea that Shallan was directly responsible for her fathers death. This constant idea of betrayal, though, makes me think she may have slipped information/gave someone the means and opportunity to go after her father. May or may not have been intentional. Either way, I'm inclined to believe that Shallan's part in her fathers death was indirect.

happyman

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Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #103 on: October 01, 2010, 02:51:20 PM »
I just read this entire thread and want to throw a few ideas out there.

1) has anyone considered that the person on the floor wasn't her father? I can't remember the scene, but if the guy isn't specifically considered 'dead', then it could even be Nan Balat.

It's been considered.  It's possible but unlikely.  The fact is that the book doesn't describe Shallan's thoughts about the scene at all when she draws it.  She draws it, realizes she's drawn it, and (IIRC) destroys it without giving us any information.  As if she was avoiding thinking about it at any possible cost.


2)I like the idea that Shallan picked up the blade by accident, but it also seems possible that she convinced her father to give her the Blade, which may have been an indirect cause of his death. Her father had a lot of enemies. This may have put him without a weapon when in need.

3)that brings up the soulcaster. Given what we now know about spren, I wonder if someone intentionally sheared the object in order to release the spren or at least render it useless for a future murder. I know that theory has a lot of holes in it since I'm not inclined to believe that a Shardbearer would bother cutting up a soulcaster for that reason.
-random point- did they find the sheared pieces of the soulcaster, or did those just decide to go off and vanish?

4) I can see the Ghostbloods killing members off for slight discrepancies. Her dad must have had a million opportunities to piss these guys off, so maybe he took one.

5)Shallan refers to herself maybe once as a murderer. But she says a lot of times that she's a traitor.
Quote
Considering what I've done before, she thought, this is nothing. It wouldn't be the first time she betrayed someone who trusted her.
Though I must point out, I'm not really sure why she'd classify her father as someone who trusted her. They weren't the tightest-knit group.

I have to take exception with this last part.  I expect that their family was ferociously dysfunctional, but emotionally tight-knit.  It doesn't have to be a good emotion.  From her backstory, she seems to have been incredibly isolated.  Her family, as bad as it apparently was, was all she had.  And her father probably did trust her, as did her brothers.  How many people do we have who she could have betrayed?


6)I'm not a fan of the idea that Shallan was directly responsible for her fathers death. This constant idea of betrayal, though, makes me think she may have slipped information/gave someone the means and opportunity to go after her father. May or may not have been intentional. Either way, I'm inclined to believe that Shallan's part in her fathers death was indirect.


And I think that Shallan is smart enough to tell the difference between murdering somebody and accidentally leaving them exposed to danger.  Especially when the other person should be more than capable of taking care of themselves.  Her father seems like the sort who would like to take control, and Shallan seems to be the sort who would let him take control.  Because of that, I don't see anything but direct action on her part leaving her feeling responsible, because normally she would (quite rightly) transfer it to her father.

Besides, isn't killing your father an act of betrayal?  She's apparently loyal to her brothers.
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douglas

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Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #104 on: October 01, 2010, 03:07:23 PM »
-random point- did they find the sheared pieces of the soulcaster, or did those just decide to go off and vanish?
They found them and glued (or something) them back together.  Shallan has the reassembled pieces, and her possession of them is a critical part of her plan to steal Jasnah's soulcaster - without them, she'd have nothing to replace Jasnah's soulcaster with.  I'm not sure how you could have missed this, as it's rather important to her part of the plot and is mentioned repeatedly.