Author Topic: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**  (Read 31422 times)

Cheese Ninja

  • Level 4
  • *
  • Posts: 93
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #75 on: September 17, 2010, 11:20:18 PM »
You left how the Soulcaster that was on the inside pocket of his coat would have gotten sheared through in two places.  A shardblade is the most likely killing weapon at this point.  I really doubt that he wasn't wearing the coat when it got cut through, seems like something as valuable as the Soulcaster he'd want to keep about his person at all times.

As far as the murder of her father being a source of deep guilt, well, duh.  It was also obvious almost from the first mention of her shardblade that she didn't really want to think about it or dwell on it at all. 

I'm not willing to rule out that someone outside of her family was there that night, and may have gotten killed as well.  There isn't any solid evidence for it, only that if her father was killed with a shardblade, it would have taken a 2nd blow after death for him to be the dead bleeding body she was drawing.  If there was another person killed that night, they could have been killed by a more typical weapon.  If it was a stranger's shardblade, that might explain why they can't sell it without attracting unwanted attention.

Stormblessed

  • Level 10
  • *
  • Posts: 380
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #76 on: September 18, 2010, 12:20:20 AM »
I can think of lots and lots of questions, and some excellent ones have already been raised. For example, how did Shallan's father get (at least) two super rare and expensive items (the shardblade and the soulcaster). Did they belong to the family historically? Did he set up some grand bargain with the Ghostbloods? Was he deeply part of the Ghostbloods and doing this as part of their schemes, or was is more for his own personal gain? Why were the Ghostbloods asking after the soulcaster but not the shardblade? Was there a "hidden" reason why Shallan's father seemed particularly over-protective of her, or was it a combination of culture and his personality? Why did Shallan of all people end up with the sword - if it just appeared by her father's dead body, why did she claim it and not one of her brothers (culturally, she's shouldn't be going near such things and she's doesn't come across as a tomboy)? Could it be that he actually gave the sword to her specifically? Shallan seems quite trusting of her brothers, but do they know she has that sword? How accurate is Shallan's perspective of events? What were the events leading up to her father's death - some kind of internal dispute (no hints that outsiders we involved on the day in question at least)? Was it something sudden and completely surprising or was it a "last straw" kind of event? It seems like it occurred at a family dinner almost, so why would Shallan (seemingly) play the biggest role and not one of her other brothers? Why did the soulcaster get damaged - was it "collateral damage" or did it play some part of the events?

I have theories concerning some of these questions you've raised. The soulcaster obviously came frp, the ghostbloods, but I doubt that the shardblade came from them (i doubt they even knew about it) as they would've asked for it back when they asked for the soulcaster. And I doubt that her father was high up in the Ghostbloods as they not have asked for the soulcaster back until they knew the father was dead, which they don't.

I think Shallan got the shardblade for killing her father, like most of these transactions occur. Her father doesnt sound like someone who would willingly bestow something so powerful on his daughter when he didnt think he was going to die (and she did kill him, so he probably wouldnt bestow it on her just before he died).
"You've killed me. Bastards, you've killed me!
 -- Darkeyed Soldier

kari-no-sugata

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 34
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #77 on: September 18, 2010, 09:28:42 PM »
Taking something I wrote earlier and expanding upon it a bit...

I actually rather like the proposition that Shallan's father "gave" her the sword.

The reasoning goes a bit like this: Shallan is a major viewpoint character for the whole series - book 2 or 3 will have her as the main focus (Brandon hasn't decided yet - read the Q&A links from his latest blog post), which would include full flashbacks, presumably to particular scenes only hinted at so far. I wouldn't be surprised if those flashbacks were already written, since a LOT of back-story was written already apparently. So, I wouldn't be least bit surprised if there are some really good answers to the things we're discussing here. Answers that make us go "argh, now why didn't I think of that earlier!?".

If Shallan's father "gives" her the sword he could also give her a reason not to sell it at the same time. ie some kind of dying message - in a similar way a certain king gives Szeth a particular gem to keep. Effectively, one thing can neatly solve two problems - why did Shallan of all people get the sword, and why didn't she sell it to save the house?

I'm certainly not saying that this is the only solution, but rather that the solution might be something along these lines.

One thing the book makes very clear is that Shallan finds conflict disturbing and always has and angry people make her very nervous. Her brothers tease her for being shy. This seems likely due to her father - after all, he was so bad he seems to have "broken" all of his children in some way, and that Shallan's 3 tutors left shortly after starting because of his temper. It's only more recent that Shallan has started becoming bolder. It's a bit hard to square this with Shallan killing her father somehow, but clearly it did happen - or at least, Shallan thinks she killed her father (can that spren tell the difference?). Personality-wise and culturally-wise, Shallan is the last person you'd expect to kill her father and also the last person to get a Shardblade. She'd need a good reason for picking it up if she did it on her own initiative. It's very hard to think of a good reason for her to pick it up and keep it if her father died and it simply appeared. She might be curious enough in general but if her father had just died I don't think she'd just be that interested at the time.

Also, Brandon doesn't seem to do "just so" stories that much. There's clearly a lot more to her father than meets the eye - more than can be explained with just flashbacks. If Shallan's father gives her the sword (or wills it to her) then it makes him and his backstory a lot more interesting. It would also make Shallan more conflicted about what she feels about him, which is right up Brandon's street.

Dryone

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #78 on: September 19, 2010, 05:10:34 PM »
The only scenario I can imagine where Shalan's father gives the shardblade to her is: "Take this blade, kill your brother and give it back to me." That would also give Shalan a motive and explain the broken soulcaster.

It would not explain the man in a pool of blood. While the second-shardblade-strike theory has a ring to it, it still would not work since dead people don't bleed.

My favorite theory: Father beats son senseless, Shalan stabs father with conventional weapon (or steak knife), stormblade materialises, she picks it up and drops it again. Could a dropping shardblade cause the damage to the soulcaster before vaporizing?

Stormblessed

  • Level 10
  • *
  • Posts: 380
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #79 on: September 20, 2010, 07:24:42 AM »
The only scenario I can imagine where Shalan's father gives the shardblade to her is: "Take this blade, kill your brother and give it back to me." That would also give Shalan a motive and explain the broken soulcaster.

It would not explain the man in a pool of blood. While the second-shardblade-strike theory has a ring to it, it still would not work since dead people don't bleed.

My favorite theory: Father beats son senseless, Shalan stabs father with conventional weapon (or steak knife), stormblade materialises, she picks it up and drops it again. Could a dropping shardblade cause the damage to the soulcaster before vaporizing?

I like that theory too, but I just can't see how the soulcaster could have been damaged by the shardblade. But at least this theory feels in place with the character of Shallan. There is no way that I can feasibly see Shallan owning a shardblade prior to killing her father.
"You've killed me. Bastards, you've killed me!
 -- Darkeyed Soldier

Erunion

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 56
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #80 on: September 20, 2010, 07:47:31 AM »
The only scenario I can imagine where Shalan's father gives the shardblade to her is: "Take this blade, kill your brother and give it back to me." That would also give Shalan a motive and explain the broken soulcaster.

It would not explain the man in a pool of blood. While the second-shardblade-strike theory has a ring to it, it still would not work since dead people don't bleed.

My favorite theory: Father beats son senseless, Shalan stabs father with conventional weapon (or steak knife), stormblade materialises, she picks it up and drops it again. Could a dropping shardblade cause the damage to the soulcaster before vaporizing?

A man in a rage has a tendency to lose outer layers of clothing so he can beat people up. I can see a very angry man throw his coat to the ground to remove the restrictions, both mentally and physically, that are implied by said coat. (Removing a physical layer allows greater freedom of movement, the coat of a nobleman also implies restraint and control. Throwing it off just makes sense.)
Shallan's father stands up from the table in a rage, charges over and attacks Nan Balat, shattering his leg and rendering him unconcious. He turns to the table, gripping the edges for a brief moment before continuing his beating of the now-unconscious boy. Shallan grabs a steaknife and stabs her father in the back. Her father dies, slumping over the table. Shardblade materializes. In shock, Shallan bends down and picks up the blade, not really realizing what she is seeing. When her mind refocuses, she realizes what she has done, leaps back and drops the blade. The blade cuts through her father's coat, lying on the ground, and shears the soulcaster.
Deep-seated guilt and emotions prevent Shallan from telling anyone about the blade.

Fast forward a year or so, and you have the Shallan of today.

Stormblessed

  • Level 10
  • *
  • Posts: 380
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #81 on: September 20, 2010, 07:56:25 AM »
The only scenario I can imagine where Shalan's father gives the shardblade to her is: "Take this blade, kill your brother and give it back to me." That would also give Shalan a motive and explain the broken soulcaster.

It would not explain the man in a pool of blood. While the second-shardblade-strike theory has a ring to it, it still would not work since dead people don't bleed.

My favorite theory: Father beats son senseless, Shalan stabs father with conventional weapon (or steak knife), stormblade materialises, she picks it up and drops it again. Could a dropping shardblade cause the damage to the soulcaster before vaporizing?

A man in a rage has a tendency to lose outer layers of clothing so he can beat people up. I can see a very angry man throw his coat to the ground to remove the restrictions, both mentally and physically, that are implied by said coat. (Removing a physical layer allows greater freedom of movement, the coat of a nobleman also implies restraint and control. Throwing it off just makes sense.)
Shallan's father stands up from the table in a rage, charges over and attacks Nan Balat, shattering his leg and rendering him unconcious. He turns to the table, gripping the edges for a brief moment before continuing his beating of the now-unconscious boy. Shallan grabs a steaknife and stabs her father in the back. Her father dies, slumping over the table. Shardblade materializes. In shock, Shallan bends down and picks up the blade, not really realizing what she is seeing. When her mind refocuses, she realizes what she has done, leaps back and drops the blade. The blade cuts through her father's coat, lying on the ground, and shears the soulcaster.
Deep-seated guilt and emotions prevent Shallan from telling anyone about the blade.

Fast forward a year or so, and you have the Shallan of today.

Would the shardblade demist when it hits the ground, or just when it leaves the hand. If the latter, then maybe she deliberately or accidentally struck at the coat with the shardblade, not realising the soulcaster was in it.
"You've killed me. Bastards, you've killed me!
 -- Darkeyed Soldier

Cheese Ninja

  • Level 4
  • *
  • Posts: 93
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #82 on: September 20, 2010, 08:07:00 AM »
There's a small amount of time between letting go of a shardblade and it dematerializing, but it's long enough to cut through something as it's falling.
Quote
He cursed, yanking Gallant in a tight turn, but the tail came too quickly. It slammed into Gallant, and in a heartbeat Dalinar found himself rolling, Oathbringer tumbling from his fingers and slicing a gash in the stone ground before puffing to mist.

Stormblessed

  • Level 10
  • *
  • Posts: 380
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #83 on: September 20, 2010, 08:17:19 AM »
There's a small amount of time between letting go of a shardblade and it dematerializing, but it's long enough to cut through something as it's falling.
Quote
He cursed, yanking Gallant in a tight turn, but the tail came too quickly. It slammed into Gallant, and in a heartbeat Dalinar found himself rolling, Oathbringer tumbling from his fingers and slicing a gash in the stone ground before puffing to mist.

I guess that clears that one up. I agree with Erunion. This sort of explanation fits with how I thought Shallan's character would react.
"You've killed me. Bastards, you've killed me!
 -- Darkeyed Soldier

happyman

  • Level 17
  • *
  • Posts: 828
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #84 on: September 20, 2010, 03:36:52 PM »
You left how the Soulcaster that was on the inside pocket of his coat would have gotten sheared through in two places.  A shardblade is the most likely killing weapon at this point.  I really doubt that he wasn't wearing the coat when it got cut through, seems like something as valuable as the Soulcaster he'd want to keep about his person at all times.

As far as the murder of her father being a source of deep guilt, well, duh.  It was also obvious almost from the first mention of her shardblade that she didn't really want to think about it or dwell on it at all. 

I'm not willing to rule out that someone outside of her family was there that night, and may have gotten killed as well.  There isn't any solid evidence for it, only that if her father was killed with a shardblade, it would have taken a 2nd blow after death for him to be the dead bleeding body she was drawing.  If there was another person killed that night, they could have been killed by a more typical weapon.  If it was a stranger's shardblade, that might explain why they can't sell it without attracting unwanted attention.

I cannot, repeat, cannot square this Shallan's character.  Death shocks her deeply.  Another person involved who dies---it just doesn't work at any level.  It would have come out in her guilt, somehow.

As to the Soulcaster being broken---I suppose a Shardblade could have done it.  That may explain why it can't be repaired.  But we just don't know enough to assume that that is what did it.

BTW, I'm totally on board with Shallan not knowing she was claiming a Shardblade when she did.  If things were half as chaotic as they must have been, she would have been in total shock and denial.  Not knowing what you are doing is a common response to that kind of thing, and Bam! Shardblade claimed.
Nature hates being reified.

Dryone

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #85 on: September 20, 2010, 07:15:58 PM »
Hm, there is still a problem with Shalan dropping the shardbalde and destroying the soulcaster:

The soulcaster was found in the inside pocket of the coat, and the dead man was lying on his face.

happyman

  • Level 17
  • *
  • Posts: 828
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #86 on: September 20, 2010, 10:38:15 PM »
Hm, there is still a problem with Shalan dropping the shardbalde and destroying the soulcaster:

The soulcaster was found in the inside pocket of the coat, and the dead man was lying on his face.


There's an even bigger problem with the idea that the soulcaster was destroyed by the Shardblade at all:  If it was in his inside pocket, the shardblade would have sliced the coat.  Her brothers would probably have noticed that!   This strikes me as evidence the the Shardblade was not what destroyed the fabrial.
Nature hates being reified.

Cheese Ninja

  • Level 4
  • *
  • Posts: 93
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #87 on: September 20, 2010, 11:05:31 PM »
I'm standing by the soulcaster cut by shardblade theory, because I don't know how else a metal object could have gotten "sheared" in multiple places.  Short of a very sharp, very hard conventional blade, moving very fast.  And when there's a shardblade at the scene already, I'll go with it as the most likely tool.  There was no mention of the condition of the coat, just the soulcaster was found in the coat's inside pocket.  The coat could have been in tatters for all we know, as long as the original location of the soulcaster could be determined to be the inside pocket.
It would not explain the man in a pool of blood. While the second-shardblade-strike theory has a ring to it, it still would not work since dead people don't bleed.

Also, dead people still bleed, especially freshly dead, because the blood hasn't congealed and gravity affects blood like any other liquid.

zebobes

  • Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 13
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #88 on: September 21, 2010, 02:04:18 AM »
Now that we know from the Navani translation page that spren are trapped in Soulcasters, what if the reason that Shallan attracted the transforming spren was because she freed it/them from the Soulcaster by accidentally breaking it?

Stormblessed

  • Level 10
  • *
  • Posts: 380
  • Fell Points: 0
    • View Profile
Re: WoK: Shalan - near end of book **SPOILERS**
« Reply #89 on: September 21, 2010, 05:17:55 AM »
Now that we know from the Navani translation page that spren are trapped in Soulcasters, what if the reason that Shallan attracted the transforming spren was because she freed it/them from the Soulcaster by accidentally breaking it?

I never thought of that, but it could be possible. I think the spren are honesty spren (they search for truth). Note how honesty is the second divine attribute for the 6-shash essence, which is probably the order of knights radiant that Shallan would be attached to. The people of that essence exhibit the primary divine attribute of creativity. So while the honesty spren might search for honesty, they can still be attracted to those with creative abilities.
"You've killed me. Bastards, you've killed me!
 -- Darkeyed Soldier