Criticism of the government, Duty or Treason?

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt

I thought that would be a good way to start,

What do y'all think.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

i agree with Teddy here. Admitting a politicians errors is  a must. You can still like him better than the other options, but it's your duty to see the good AND the bad in human beings, esp those that you'd have lead you.

[Gemm: Rock & Roll Star; Born to Rock]

I'm learning about the whole Civil Rights movement in my Modern US History class, and I have to say, being able to corolate the time when Teddy was president and the time we are in now, that doesn't mean much. I'd say, were we still riding buggy horse carriages, and women wore large dresses, then yes, its all good. But women wear pants, and skirts shorter than the mississippi nowadays. And there's the whole depression, and dust bowls, and terrorists, and Nixon, and Vietnam.

Yeah, I just don't think that works nowadays.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

Gemm, i normally don't say this, but since it looked like you were trying to be on topic, I have to ask,

what in the WORLD are you talking about?

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

would either of you be interested in the context of Teddy's speech.

[Gemm: Rock & Roll Star; Born to Rock]

I'd much rather have some of Reagan's speeches. And ok, fine, I guess I don't completely understand what Teddy is saying.

Oh, so he's saying that if we weren't allowed to criticise the presidents then that would be a very bad thing. Ohhh.... well, yeah. Ok. Sure.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

I brought this up because last night I saw the worlds most vile TV program.

Its on the WB.

It supposedly focuses on family and christian values (although I didn't think being nosey and condescending was all that Christian)

Its surprisingly popular

It blew chunks.

Basically two kids have to do a report on George Washington and Abe Lincoln for presidents day. So what do they do, they put together a critical newspaper about Honest Abe and George. Half way though handing out their project to the class the teacher stands up, demands that they stop and then orders all the students to throw away thier copy. Then the two kids are told that presidents day exhists to honor these individuals and that we cant be critical of them, and that these reports are no better than trash. Further more she chastises the kids parents for letting them write it and threatens to give them a failing grade.

So the kids cave in, and rather than stick to their guns, they do a hack report that basically says George Washington threw a quarter over the potomac and that Abe Lincoln was a poor man who got elected president because he wanted to abolish slavery.

Anyhow 7th Heaven has earned my ire

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

TR was speaking out for protestors against WWI who Woodrow Wilson was having arrested.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

No government ought to be without censors & where the press is free, no one ever will.
Thomas Jefferson (1743 - 1826), letter to George Washington, September 9, 1792

[House of Mustard]

The way this is presented, I don't think anybody would argue with you.  Of course, if we're presented wiht only two choices (duty or treason), then no one will ever say treason.

However, I certainly wouldn't say it's duty either.  The government is set up so that it checks and balances itself, and, most of the time, the only need for the general populace to voice their opinion is when they vote.  This is not to say that vocal criticism of the government is never needed, just that it's more of a last resort than a daily requirement.

Let me go back a bit: my personal opinion, is that the amount of political cynicism displayed by young americans is due, in large part (not totally, of course--there are lots of causes) to "info-tainment."  Most people today get their opinion of the government from political commentators, rather than through actually looking at facts and making their own analyses.  I don't remember the exact stats, but a study last year showed that something like 25% of people under 30 got their news by watching The Daily Show.

I'm all for criticism of the government, if the people criticizing it are intelligent, and have a good knowledge of the facts.  However, if a person's "knowledge" comes mostly from listening to political opinion columnists and partisan propaganda, I DO believe their vocal criticism is doing a disservice to the country.  It's really no more than spreading misleading/false information.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

a valid point, education is vital in a republic, (since we arent exactly a democracy) because if your lazy and only let other people tell you what your opinion should be then your opinion will never get heard, at the ballot box or in real life.

Still I think its safe to say that on certain issues an individual feel passionate about we are more than welcome to criticise those in power if our opinions differ. A person has a right to say for example (the views expressed are not neccisarily my own) that abortion is bad and people shouldnt be allowed to do it. They have a right to take that a logical right to take that to those in power and say change this and if you don't Im going to be critical of your policy. Of course that right stops where Malcom X says (before the fist strikes the face)
I think that peoples minds are pretty much made up about certain issues... War, Crime, Education and I dont think that the media has much control over those things in the long term.... for the short term maybe, but not the long term.

[House of Mustard]

I agree Jeffe -- people are more than welcome to talk to their congressman or whatever, and express their views.  What bugs me, however, are the vocal and lazy masses who whine and whine, and write letters to the editor, but never take any action whatsoever.

[Gemm: Rock & Roll Star; Born to Rock]

Ohh, is that what your next book is going to be about Homsar?

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Well its like Bill Mahr says, why do something when putting a flag on your car is enough.

When we started this war on terror we should have done something drastic, dramatic, we should have said "These terrorists are funded by regimes that survive on profits from the oil buisness, the money we pay these countries for petrolium gets turned into weapons that are used used against us. To combat the evil of terrorism we are going to phaze out gasoline powered vehicles in the next ten years and replace them with fuel cells and eletric engines, we will do this and other things not because they are easy but because they are hard.

Instead we were told to shop more and put up little flags made in Taiwan on everything. Unless people are challenged, and really put to task, inertia set in.
And bitching is easier than doing anything...
but it doesnt have to be.

<you know how I know this... I know it because of my Grandparents>
We could ration, volunteer, collect scrap, recycle, drive less, eat less and sacrifice for our country, but we dont.

And yeah I know theres probobly tons of things wrong with my solution to the terror problem, but you gotta admit its a step we should be taking anyway.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

k, I'm still sayign duty. Not legally. But ethically, I think people have a duty to be critical when something is genuinely wrong. Naturally, this means KNOWING when it's genuinely wrong. Which, generally, is not simply because some comedian says it is.

Of course, the reverse is true: you have an ethical responsibility to admit when something is right and good.