May 24 - Justice1337 - TheodoraExcerpt

[Justice1337]

I'm looking forward to zealous input.  Fire away.

[Justice1337]

Did everyone get this?  It's the first time I've submitted anything, so I'm wondering if I sent it right.

[Chaos]

You did indeed

I'll start with the good. You do a superb job of describing clothing. The first two pages were really, really good. You were describing the clothing, and it led perfectly into Theodora's conflict. It actually worked for me that you were describing clothing. You probably don't think that's much of a praise, but really, from me, it is.

I'm also interested in your world. The politics are fascinating. It excuses the piece for not really having any "fantasy" elements to it. There's no magic or elements that make this world foreign, but the interesting culture were sufficient at this point, at least.

So overall, the prose is pretty good. There were two viewpoint errors I saw early on, which I'll mention later.

And now for the bad: it is excruciatingly telly. I forgave you on the first two pages. It was an interesting interlude until we sorta understood Theodora on page two, with her primary conflict. Then we get exposition about the Interlude, the court system, Justiciars... It goes on and on. When I finished the piece, I did have a good impression of the politics, but it would have been so much better if I had been shown it!

I know there's good story hiding away in this piece somewhere. But that's not what I was reading. I was reading almost an encyclopedia. Cut all the unnecessary exposition paragraphs and just get me to the scene and the story. We had a cool conflict with Theodora, but you didn't capitalize on it. We had an accused criminal was hacked down by a Justicar--that scene, if you had shown it, would have made the chapter worth it completely. There's a King who obviously has a fairly free sex life, and this should have been capitalized on more, too.

There's interesting stuff happening. That's what I want to see! I mean, come on. We have a Kingdom which has a strong focus on art, and it's a democracy. You almost have the impression that this is almost a utopia. Then we see the judicial system is essentially a barbaric gladiatorial contest! That's an excellent juxtaposition that you can easily capitalize on.

So really, my issue is that there's not enough story.

Line issues:

Queen Elmina caught Theodora glancing in her direction, and they exchanged vibrant smiles.

The way its phrased has Elmina as a viewpoint character. It's not hard to shift the phrases around to make it Theodora's, however.

This one is much more egregious, however:

The Queen eyed her suspiciously, wary that her protruding knee would attract the eyes of her husband.

That's a line I would expect from an Elmina viewpoint.

When we get to Thomas's introduction, the prose isn't crystal clear that the "slight man" is in fact the King. The way it is phrased, it is just some guy, and his name is introduced later. It would flow better by just stating who he is so there's no confusion.

That's all the line issues. Your prose is solid, but then again, it's hard to judge because there wasn't much actual meat to the story.

[Drew P]

I agree with what Chaod said above. It was very telly. My biggest shock, though, was I didn't realize it as I read. Only after looking back over it. I just enjoyed what I was reading. Your writing feels very smooth and it was very interesting to read.

The concept of the kingdom and it's politics is very interesting, but at times I felt it bordered on silly. It never quite got there, but it seemed close at times. Of course, then you had a brutal deaths entence and it got much less silly.

I, too would have liked to have seen the Justiciar demonstrate his prowess on camera, but in a novel there would be other times for this and I can let it pass in the hopes that we would be shown this at various other times.

Overall this was really good. I would love to read more.

[Justice1337]

Thanks for the encouragement and the input, especially to Chaos for the line edits.  I fear I need those really often because I tend to read what I was thinking when I wrote instead of the actual text.

A lot of the reason I submitted this is because I felt it had this very issue with being telly.  The problem is that I've revealed the main character in the few chapters preceeding, and he's totally ignorant to the structure of government in his own kingdom.  AND he's on a fortress on the fringe of it where no one much cares about the King or the Justiciars.  The main character needs to be ignorant of these things because in Act II he goes to ask the capital to send their troops to this fringe fortress because they're about to be attacked.  Neither the Justiciars or the King really want to help him out, and in all his idealism, he can't understand why.  His ignorance of this complex government is a major piece, and it's been a challenge to find ways to let the reader know what the hero doesn't in a condensed sort of way that doesn't bog things down.   

This is just my best attempt so far at doing so.

I could show more scenes with Theodora to spread this exposition out.  I could have more maid-and-butler dialogue outside the presence of the Hero with the characters that are known to him.  But everything I've tried so far has either been unnecessarily slow or it comes off as a cheap trick.  I'm hoping that this latest cheap trick of mine doesn't come off that way, though it might always be spotted by experts for what it is.  Anyway, that's my trouble.  Sorry for jumping you guys ahead a half a dozen chapters to solve it

I do think that I will at least write more of a blow by blow of this trial by combat, maybe even include it in the final.  It's a sideshow to the main conflict, to be sure, but strangely action might serve as a break in the exposition for once, instead of the other way around.

[Recovering_Cynic]

I will agree with everything that has been said--to a point.  Yes, the piece was telly, but I didn't mind it so much.  If this chapter is four or five chapters in, then your reader might not mind so much either.  I'd hold off on ripping this one apart until you've had someone review the book in its entirety.  If you are bent on changing it, you might make some of the infodumpiness become internal thoughts for your MC. 

As to the fight, a little more description would be nice, but not too much is needed, just a smal paragraph here and there. 

There is one thing that bothered me that has not been mentioned.  This piece interested me by the end, but the first four paragraphs put me to sleep.  I know this isn't the first chapter, but if it were, I would have tossed the book after the first page, which is a shame since there is some pretty good stuff here.  I guess my beef is that you might have started the scene in the wrong spot, but I suppose that depends on the audience you are shooting for.  The first few paragraphs are intrigue, petticoats, and singing.  The end is swordfighting.  If you've already had action in your first few chapters, then leaving your swordfighting to the end is fine.  Your reader already knows what he is getting and what will be coming later.  If we haven't seen actiona already, well, you might lose some readers. 

Anyway, well done.  I liked it. 

[lethalfalcon]

Zealous, eh? I can probably do that one.

For the most part, I did not have a problem with the characters. They were distinct, and they felt like they actually had personality (annoying ones, mostly). Of course, I'm horrible with characters, as everyone else has pointed out to me in the past, so grains of salt are necessary.

I had a problem with two major points. First, going into so much detail about the Kingdom and Thomas' past right away. Yes, it was quite telly. I understand that you want to give the reader some understanding about things so that when your other main character goes and mucks it all up, the reader will know that. I don't have a problem with that. It's all about your delivery. You lament about Thomas' past off and on for about three pages. Would Theodora really be thinking about all that at this time? I'd wager that, since she's been around for at least a little bit, she wouldn't care much anymore, so you really are just telling us for our sake. I would suggest showing as it becomes relevant. The part about him and flutes, that's good to show here, where there's music. The parts about the process of choosing kings and such? Not so much right here.

Second, I have a problem with the beginning. Usually, when you introduce a new character, you have a sort of mini-hook to get the reader interested (or detesting) that character. You can show off one of their skills, or put them in a dangerous situation, or something. You have her just sitting around, listening to some music and trading banter with the King. To me, this indicates a bit of a boring character, which makes me want to skim through her sections. Honestly, when I read the first sentence, I was hoping that somehow the music was going to be special (magic, or perhaps some eerie Twilight Zone stuff, or perhaps even a lonely person singing about their love that they'd lost and the MC was just hearing in). Instead it's just a performance. Sigh. And then a thief, who goes through a "trial", only to be butchered in a completely one-sided battle. The justice system doesn't bother me at all, really; it's the fact that nothing really happens to the character you're trying to introduce other than being pestered by the whiny Queen. If her conflict revolves solely around domestic disputes, I'm going to find it very hard not to start skimming her chapters looking for the words "died in a catfight" so I can celebrate.

The ending... it seems to just trail off, too. I like her wit, but why end it right there? What about the harlotry charge? That seems to have been thrown in the background... ironically, I'd be more interested in how *that* trial went, given that the King seems to have a bit of a problem in that area--at least, that's the impression I got.

Don't get me wrong, this is certainly not bad writing. Your sentences flow pretty well, you have some good description... I just don't feel much actual story in it (which Chaos has already commented on, looking back through the comments). Keep it up, though. I'll keep reading.

[Recovering_Cynic]

Second, I have a problem with the beginning. Usually, when you introduce a new character, you have a sort of mini-hook to get the reader interested (or detesting) that character. You can show off one of their skills, or put them in a dangerous situation, or something. You have her just sitting around, listening to some music and trading banter with the King. To me, this indicates a bit of a boring character, which makes me want to skim through her sections. Honestly, when I read the first sentence, I was hoping that somehow the music was going to be special (magic, or perhaps some eerie Twilight Zone stuff, or perhaps even a lonely person singing about their love that they'd lost and the MC was just hearing in). Instead it's just a performance. Sigh

This is what I tried to say earlier, but Lethal said it much better.

[Justice1337]

Specific Question:  Is Theodora believable as a female, or does her internal monologue seem male to you guys?

[lethalfalcon]

I'd say, based on a lot of the things she notices/comments on (mode of dress, the queen's... scent, and so on) that she thinks more femininely... but then again, I'm probably not the best judge of character. I'd say to ask one of the resident female critics, but they seem to have either fallen off the face of the planet or are quite a bit behind due to the more pressing concerns of real life.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about her internal tone at this point. Tell your story first, then revisit whether she's girly enough for the masses.

[Dark_Prophecy]

Okay, just finished this one. It's going to take me a long time to get everyone a response, but I'll work on it.

I really enjoyed this piece. I think the writing sounds very professional. I think that other than the minor viewpoint slips that Chaos mentioned, I wouldn't change a thing. You might think about adding tiny snippets of the fight in between, maybe even trying to make those mirror the conflict happening between Elmina and Theodora. I'd love to see each blow from the fight come with a corresponding backhanded comment from each person, with Elmina coming out the victor. This could also flow nicely into why Theodora is at court. But above all, don't change a thing if it hurts the voice of the piece. Never make changes if it costs you the feel of the book.

Nice work! I'll send over some line edits, though I really didn't notice much to edit

[Silk]

I'm confused as to who's actually in charge here, the King or the Queen. Lines like "Kings were not valued for their opinions in the Planting Kingdom.  That was for the Queen and the Magnate" seem to suggest that the queen is in charge, while lines like "it was the King’s bidding that determined his subjects’ fate" suggest the opposite.

If the Magnate's chair is basically a fancy way of appointing a hostage, I wonder why other nations send appointees at all?

There is definitely some interesting world-building going on in this piece, and along with that there is plenty potentially interesting conflict here. But I think this chapter is a little long for what it accomplishes, which--as far as I can tell--introduces the setting (the characters too, but it feels like there is more emphasis on setting). Other than setting and character introduction, though, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be getting out of this chapter.

I'm very interested in--and, admittedly, a little confused about--the role that art and performance plays in this society. I say "confused" because, while it's fine to let your readers wonder for a bit, at the end of this chapter I felt like I was supposed to have a better grip on it than I did.

My only other criticism is the writing itself. Be really careful with pronouns. There are many places--and I tagged a few of them in the line edits I sent you--where you would write "she" and I wasn't clear which "she" you were referring to. Or the context would make it clear that you were referring to one "she" when grammatically you should be referring to the other woman. (Generally speaking, "she" should always refer to the last female character you've mentioned, and in your manuscript this wasn't always the case.) And occasionally i felt like the link between one sentence and the next sentence wasn't especially clear.

There is plenty interesting about this piece, though. Good work so far.

Oh, and I didn't have a problem believing that Theodora was female.

[Justice1337]

Thank you, Silk.  I know it was kind of a long read

“I'm confused as to who's actually in charge here, the King or the Queen. Lines like "Kings were not valued for their opinions in the Planting Kingdom.  That was for the Queen and the Magnate" seem to suggest that the queen is in charge, while lines like "it was the King’s bidding that determined his subjects’ fate" suggest the opposite.”

The intent, and maybe I’ve failed in this, is that the allocation of power in this government be a bit confusing.  But I think, the line between showing a reader something confusing and leaving the reader herself confused is probably a bit thinner than I thought.  In the last line, I wrote “In love as in court, it was the King’s bidding…”  It’s because the King has basically two powers: one to appoint officers of government and the other to act as a judge over cases.  Both of these powers, like often happens with powers of government, bleed a lot into other things and get thrown around so much that it’s hard to tell where they end.  Likewise, the King, Queen and Magnate form the lawmaking body, and so, the Queen’s opinion has as much weight as the King’s.  The Justiciars have the executive power, police, war, etc.  As for the Magnate, the King appoints foreign nobles directly, without going through their government.  It would seem strange for a modern nation to do that, but medieval royalty did things like that all the time.  And it’s only Theodora that is used as a hostage because this particular King is a lush.  Blah blah, I’ll not try to save face anymore It’s enough that this is a chapter 4 and that I’ll just have to key into the potentially confusing issues more as I hint at them somewhat in previous chapters.  The art thing will also be explored in other chapters, and it’s enough to say that it’s nothing official.     



As for the pronoun issue, I’ve been told that I write my third-person limited viewpoint a little more impersonal than most, and it’s led other people also to question whether it’s simply a cinematic form of third person omniscient.  It might be clear after having read the first few chapters of a novel already, but adding more emotion to my narrative is definitely something I need to work on too.

[Silk]

You're welcome. And it wasn't all that long.

And it’s only Theodora that is used as a hostage because this particular King is a lush.

That's good, then, since I'm assuming you'll make that clear later on in the manuscript. That's the sort of thing that readers are willing to read and find out.

As for the allocation of power, I think that could be a little more clearly explicated in the text. If you wanted to avoid seeming infodumpy, maybe one way to get around that would be to tell us what Theodora thinks of their silly convoluted system (or their efficient system, or whatever she thinks of it).  If Theodora herself is confused by the system, you could perhaps mention that instead. Personally I'd be a bit reluctant to stick with the "read and find out" tactic here because to readers it might lok like an error.

I don't think I explained my comment on the pronouns very well. As far as I'm concerned it was quite clear that you were writing in third-person limited, and I didn't notice any inconsistencies. What I was talking about is purely grammatical--I often got a little bit lost trying to figure out which woman "she" referred to.

[Justice1337]

Ah, I understand about the pronouns having looked over your corrections.  And, it's my fault for not understanding the first time.  Work has been hectic, I billed over 60 hours last week.

The suggestions of everyone have been quite good.  I think I will show more of the fight scene, expand the early part of the dialogue to spice up the info-dump, and find a more solid ending that makes people want to return to this character.

Thanks to everyone who contributed.