Preservation is.....Brandon?

[firstRainbowRose]

If I may, what the term may or may not have started out as, it has changed.  What I see it being used as now (and this is being seen from the ffs I read on ff.net... Yes, I'm one of those people) is both.  Mary Sue in general seemed to be applied to characters who are too perfect (see: Bella in Breaking Dawn.  She has perfect control over her vampire lust, everyone loves her.  It's also those characters who always know what to say to solve a problem.)  Self-insertion is now the term used (at least in the ff community) for when an author inserts themselves.  If it's not a direct insert it's a self-inserted Mary Sue (ie -- I write myself in as Sarah's best friend in a Laby fanfic, but my name is Mi'chelle in the fic.  It's Jan, but I look like I look, and sound like I sound, act like I do, and come from my same background.)

So while it may have started out as the ST character (which, by the way Peter was cool to know) I think it has grown into something more.

[Fireborn]

I get what you're saying FGR.  And the concept of the Mary Sue existed long before it was given a name, just sayin'.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

fRR, I've also been reading fanfic for years, and I maintain that usage is wrong and confusing. Insertion/wish-fulfillment is the soul of a Mary Sue.

Sometimes a character may be misinterpreted as a Mary Sue by a reader when he/she is perceived as too perfect, but when that character is nothing like the author and does not reflect the author's actual views/wishes, then that character is not a Mary Sue.

As far as I know, though, Bella is a genuine Mary Sue who reflects Stepehnie's ideal self and how she would want to react in that situation. That's the impression I've gotten, though it may be wrong.

I read a series once by Leo Frankowski, a Polish-American bachelor engineer, about a Polish-American bachelor engineer who goes back in time to 1200s Poland and jumpstarts the technology while getting tons of women to fall in love with him. The Mary Sue was strong in those books.

Fanfic in its modern form began with Star Trek, so the fanfic Mary Sue did not originate long before the term came about. However, it's true that authors used self avatars from time to time for centuries beforehand. But their usage was often more skilled due to editors not publishing crap.

[Fireborn]

I already said that the wish fulfillment IS part of it, but there is more to it than that.  I really don't know how to state it clearer than that.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

I already said I disagree with you. I don't know how to make it clearer than that.

[Ari54]

I've heard people compare a character that's all about indulgent wish-fulfillment but not a self-insert to a Mary Sue, but I've never heard anyone outright call them a Mary Sue. Perhaps this type of comparison has muddied the waters a little, but to be a proper Mary Sue, a character does need to be a self-insertion by the author to some degree.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Even if the character looks nothing like you, but fulfills all your indulgent wish-fulfillment fantasies, then that's still basically an insert. Changing the name and physical description, or giving the character a quirk or two that you don't have, doesn't solve an author's Mary Sue problem.

Of course I'm not saying that characters need to be nothing like their author. There will often be a part of a character that represents something about the author—authors should write what they know, after all.

[Ari54]

Even if the character looks nothing like you, but fulfills all your indulgent wish-fulfillment fantasies, then that's still basically an insert. Changing the name and physical description, or giving the character a quirk or two that you don't have, doesn't solve an author's Mary Sue problem.

Of course I'm not saying that characters need to be nothing like their author. There will often be a part of a character that represents something about the author—authors should write what they know, after all.

Right. Where it gets confusing is when the character is indulgently filling someone else's fantasies.

[Fireborn]

I'm simply saying that a Mary Sue has a tendency to reflect certain types of wish fulfillment that are not common to normal characters.  A Mary Sue tends to have so many powers and skills that half of them won't even show up in the story and are simply there to fluff up the character, compared to normal character who has a few particular skills or powers.  While the inclusion of superhuman powers is wish fulfillment by itself, it's of the type and level that makes an interesting character.  Whereas a Mary Sue has these traits but on such an enormous scale as to destroy the credibility and conflict of the character, such that we don't want to read about it.  Wish fulfillment doesn't create a Mary Sue, it is an excess of such that makes it fit under such a brand.