Author Topic: Some questions about Mistborn magic *spoilers for Mistborn trilogy*  (Read 1974 times)

Omelethead

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Alright, so I got thinking the other day about some various Allomancy and Feruchemy scenarios, and I have some questions. If anyone here can answer them, that'd be great, if not I'll save some of them for the next signing I go to.

1) Does an Allomancer's body temperature rise when burning metals?

2) Can a Feruchemist store anything and everything in a Lerasium metalmind?

3) If a Lerasium-Steel alloy will turn a normal person into a steel-misting (Coinshot), can a normal person store physical speed in a Lerasium-Steel metalmind feruchemically?

4) If someone is Hemalurgically imbued with a Feruchemist's power, could they tap that Feruchemist's metalminds? For instance, Feruchemist A spends his whole life storing senses in Tin, and then is captured by Inquisitors, who use a Tin spike to steal his Feruchemy powers and add them to Inquisitor A. Could Inquisitor A then tap Feruchemist A's tinminds? After hearing Hemalurgy described as "stapling a part of someone else's soul to your own", it sounds like it could be possible. (After glancing through the Mistborn wiki on Wikia, it looks like it would have to be a Brass spike that is used)

5)Were Inquisitors gifted with all Mistborn powers? For instance, could regular Inquisitors burn Copper, or Aluminum?

6) If two Coinshots were to get married, are their offspring more likely to be Coinshots, or just more likely to be Mistings? Do genetics code for specific Mistings, or just Allomancy in general?

7) What would an Atium-alloy do? We've seen Atium-Gold in the Eleventh Metal, or Malatium, but what about Atium-Bronze, or Atium-Iron?

Link von Kelsier Harvey XXIV

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Re: Some questions about Mistborn magic *spoilers for Mistborn trilogy*
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2010, 06:26:35 PM »
The only one I can answer is #5.

Normal inquisitors have between 9 and 11 spikes, and each one imparts exactly one power.  So, I'm inclined to believe that each inquisitor was focused on getting the most important powers.  Copper, for instance, is useful when you're hunting mistings.  Aluminum is basically worthless.  More likely they doubled up on the useful powers. (Giving them the ability to pierce copper clouds, etc.)

As for the others, I'm just as clueless as you, and Brandon seems reluctant to answer #7.  But we've all been focusing on a Lerasium/Atium alloy specifically.  Maybe he'd answer about the other alloys?
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Re: Some questions about Mistborn magic *spoilers for Mistborn trilogy*
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2010, 12:20:37 AM »
#1 is an interesting question, but I don't think anyone except Brandon (possibly through Peter) can answer. I look forward to finding out, though.

I've never been sure if we're supposed to take the term "burning" literally or not. I imagine the flakes being consumed in the belly, but I don't imagine there being heat involved, exactly.

In terms of Inquisitors "doubling up", does Hemalurgy work like that? If someone takes three Pewter spikes instead of one, does that make them automatically three times stronger than a one-spike Inquistor? Or possibly stronger by a factor of 3 rather than a multiple?

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Re: Some questions about Mistborn magic *spoilers for Mistborn trilogy*
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2010, 12:27:20 AM »
I doubt that the stacking works through exponential growth due to the "power loss" catch of Hemalurgy in general.

But #1 is a good question.  This could be the root of another allomancy/feruchemy combo trick.  Combining burning in general with brass could create a nice wealth of excess heat.
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Re: Some questions about Mistborn magic *spoilers for Mistborn trilogy*
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2010, 02:30:33 AM »
#1 is an interesting question, but I don't think anyone except Brandon (possibly through Peter) can answer. I look forward to finding out, though.

I've never been sure if we're supposed to take the term "burning" literally or not. I imagine the flakes being consumed in the belly, but I don't imagine there being heat involved, exactly.

In terms of Inquisitors "doubling up", does Hemalurgy work like that? If someone takes three Pewter spikes instead of one, does that make them automatically three times stronger than a one-spike Inquistor? Or possibly stronger by a factor of 3 rather than a multiple?

We know that power stacking works with Mistings or Mistborn (e.g. Hemalurgy increases already present powers.)  It seems to me like stacking with multiple spikes should work as well, if you can find multiple bind points (whatever those are) which will give you the same powers.

Remember the hard part of hemalurgy?  Where to place the spikes.  There may not be room to get, say, three pewter-indued spikes.

As for the original poster, the question I really want answered is #4, although #6 is really interesting as well.  It leads to questions about what would happen if Breeze and Allriane end up having children...
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Re: Some questions about Mistborn magic *spoilers for Mistborn trilogy*
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2010, 06:03:38 AM »
We know that power stacking works with Mistings or Mistborn (e.g. Hemalurgy increases already present powers.)  It seems to me like stacking with multiple spikes should work as well, if you can find multiple bind points (whatever those are) which will give you the same powers.
Stacking multiples of the same spike is how Koloss were created, so that definitely does work.  Granted, that was with a type of spike that didn't steal any allomantic power, but it was the same spike stealing the same attribute.

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Re: Some questions about Mistborn magic *spoilers for Mistborn trilogy*
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2010, 02:41:32 PM »
We know that power stacking works with Mistings or Mistborn (e.g. Hemalurgy increases already present powers.)  It seems to me like stacking with multiple spikes should work as well, if you can find multiple bind points (whatever those are) which will give you the same powers.
Stacking multiples of the same spike is how Koloss were created, so that definitely does work.  Granted, that was with a type of spike that didn't steal any allomantic power, but it was the same spike stealing the same attribute.

Oh, good point.  So it's possible in at least one case.  And it implies that stacking the abilities does work like we think it should.  It's just the side effects that are difficult to predict.

Darn it, hemalurgy is just so complex!
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Re: Some questions about Mistborn magic *spoilers for Mistborn trilogy*
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2010, 07:14:50 PM »
The only one I can answer is #5.

Normal inquisitors have between 9 and 11 spikes, and each one imparts exactly one power.  So, I'm inclined to believe that each inquisitor was focused on getting the most important powers.  Copper, for instance, is useful when you're hunting mistings.  Aluminum is basically worthless.  More likely they doubled up on the useful powers. (Giving them the ability to pierce copper clouds, etc.)
I don't know if the Lord Ruler cared to give his Inquisitors Copperclouds though. And he might have given them Aluminum spikes as a safeguard if one went renegade. He could Sooth it to take control, then keep it locked up (for questioning or whatnot) after forcing it to burn Aluminum.
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As for the others, I'm just as clueless as you, and Brandon seems reluctant to answer #7.  But we've all been focusing on a Lerasium/Atium alloy specifically.  Maybe he'd answer about the other alloys?
I've seen the questions about a Lerasium/Atium alloy, and it's interesting, but maybe we could make more educated guesses if we knew what other Atium alloys did.
#1 is an interesting question, but I don't think anyone except Brandon (possibly through Peter) can answer. I look forward to finding out, though.

I've never been sure if we're supposed to take the term "burning" literally or not. I imagine the flakes being consumed in the belly, but I don't imagine there being heat involved, exactly.

Yeah, I don't know if it is actual burning or not. I assume the Allomancers feel a heat in their stomach, but I may be wrong.
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In terms of Inquisitors "doubling up", does Hemalurgy work like that? If someone takes three Pewter spikes instead of one, does that make them automatically three times stronger than a one-spike Inquistor? Or possibly stronger by a factor of 3 rather than a multiple?
Like Happyman said, assuming you could find multiple binding points, I think you could gain more strength by having more spikes. Maybe not exactly 3 times, when you figure in any power lost in the transfer, and maybe the secondary bind points aren't as efficient, but  "doubling up" would probably add significant strength in a given power.

As for the original poster, the question I really want answered is #4, although #6 is really interesting as well.  It leads to questions about what would happen if Breeze and Allriane end up having children...

Exactly, would their children be more likely to be Emotional Allomancers? Or just Allomancers?

Omelethead

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Re: Some questions about Mistborn magic *spoilers for Mistborn trilogy*
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2010, 07:18:12 PM »
And one more question, that my brother asked me the other day:

8 ) Could a Soother take down the Hulk? He could just keep Soothing the anger away, but could he do it fast enough?

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Re: Some questions about Mistborn magic *spoilers for Mistborn trilogy*
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2010, 08:46:57 AM »
#5 was answered alright, but i think brandon or maybe peter are the only ones who could answer #1, 2, 3, 4, and 7.
             As for #6, it's been a little while since i read the books, but aren't all mistings direct descendants of the first mistborns created? if that's true, and assuming that the mistborn/misting gene follows the same rules as other genetics, then i think i can answer it. if your mom and dad both have red hair, and your grandpa's grandpa has brown hair, there is still the chance of you getting brown hair. just like how mistborn can be born of a misting. but don't quote me on that, though. because i could totally be wrong. but that makes sense right?
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Omelethead

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Re: Some questions about Mistborn magic *spoilers for Mistborn trilogy*
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2010, 05:49:27 PM »
#5 was answered alright, but i think brandon or maybe peter are the only ones who could answer #1, 2, 3, 4, and 7.
             As for #6, it's been a little while since i read the books, but aren't all mistings direct descendants of the first mistborns created? if that's true, and assuming that the mistborn/misting gene follows the same rules as other genetics, then i think i can answer it. if your mom and dad both have red hair, and your grandpa's grandpa has brown hair, there is still the chance of you getting brown hair. just like how mistborn can be born of a misting. but don't quote me on that, though. because i could totally be wrong. but that makes sense right?

Oh, I know two Seekers aren't guaranteed to only give birth to Seekers, I was just wondering if they are more likely to. I know Allomancers can have offspring that are different types of Allomancers (or have no Allomantic powers at all). Obviously originally all Allomancers were Mistborn and it's degenerated from that. And specifically, Straff (a tineye) gave birth to Zane (a mistborn), so it's obviously possible to go the other way.

I'm just wondering if a Mistings' genetics code for Allomancy in general, or if there is a greater chance of passing on a specific Misting trait.


And as for Number 5, I know Inquisitors are as powerful as Mistborn, but I didn't know if they had all 16 Mistborn powers. In fact I'm fairly sure they don't, since 4 different powers were unknown to the Lord Ruler (or at least covered up) and possibly 5, since I can't remember if the Lord Ruler knew about duralumin. So Inquisitors obviously aren't true Mistborn (unless they started out as one), but do they have some of the less useful powers? Copperclouds aren't that handy for them, Aluminum is a waste (unless the Lord Ruler wanted to build in another control measure), maybe they don't all have even the Emotional allomantic powers.

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Re: Some questions about Mistborn magic *spoilers for Mistborn trilogy*
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2010, 07:27:49 PM »
I can't believe I missed this topic. I'm not doing well enough at my forum stalking, apparently.

Virtually all of these questions have highly likely answers, except for #7. Also, I will go out a limb on #1, because that question hasn't been directly asked. But, here are my answers for you:

1. No. Metals are the focus for Preservation's power. All burning a metal does is unlock Preservation's power, and thus it grants the particular Allomantic ability corresponding to the metal. Burning should not be taken literally. There are other focuses in the Cosmere, and I asked Brandon once. The Commands in Warbreaker for Awakening, the Aons in Elantris... All of these are immensely magical in nature. I do not believe that "burning" metals would actually produce heat. Remember, these terms are in-world. The first Allomancers probably created the term, and its rather catchy, so it must have stuck, regardless of it being factually accurate.

2. Absolutely. Atium has its Feruchemical power of youth, so Lerasium must have such an ability as well.

3. We do not know that Lerasium-Steel creates a Coinshot for certain. For all we know, creation of Mistings is just another "side effect". I would imagine that whatever Lerasium-Steel does, it will not store precisely the same Feruchemical ability. However, I do not know. There's no basis for that theory, as we do not know Feruchemical powers of any God metal alloy.

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4) If someone is Hemalurgically imbued with a Feruchemist's power, could they tap that Feruchemist's metalminds? For instance, Feruchemist A spends his whole life storing senses in Tin, and then is captured by Inquisitors, who use a Tin spike to steal his Feruchemy powers and add them to Inquisitor A. Could Inquisitor A then tap Feruchemist A's tinminds? After hearing Hemalurgy described as "stapling a part of someone else's soul to your own", it sounds like it could be possible. (After glancing through the Mistborn wiki on Wikia, it looks like it would have to be a Brass spike that is used)

4. First of all, thank you referring to Hemalurgy as being "imbued". I need to start a petition for Brandon to use that term permanently. In the MB annotations, Brandon calls such metals "Hemalurgically charged", which I think is confusing it with Feruchemy.

The simple answer to this question is no.

Now, I know this for certain. I had a fellow TWGer ask Brandon at a signing. Basically, just like an Allomancer can't burn another person's Feruchemically charged metals, a Hemalurgist cannot either. In order for that to happen, the spike would actually need to be imbued from yourself, which is more than slightly ridiculous.

5. Others have answered this one really well, but to expound a bit: Inquisitor powers also depended on what skaa Mistings they could find at the time of their creation. That's a major hindrance there.

In terms of Inquisitors "doubling up", does Hemalurgy work like that? If someone takes three Pewter spikes instead of one, does that make them automatically three times stronger than a one-spike Inquistor? Or possibly stronger by a factor of 3 rather than a multiple?

My answer to that would be it depends on the genetic strength of the Allomancers you are spiking. Obviously, spiking someone like one of the Original Allomancers will increase the recipient's abilities much more than a skaa Misting who has noble blood three generations removed.

I also believe that Allomantic strength is a major factor in piercing copperclouds at all. If you were a weak Smoker, such copperclouds would be easier to break. You don't necessarily need to double up on your Bronze if you already have sufficient Allomantic strength (like the Lord Ruler). I think you just need to break a threshold on Allomantic strength relative to coppercloud you are attempting to pierce.

For Inquisitor's, I'd imagine it is necessary to double up. Inquisitors do eventually die, and in the time of the books, all those immensely strong Allomancers are dead, so an Inquisitor would have less "absolute" Allomantic strength compared with centuries before. But if they double up on bronze, they have more than enough "relative" Allomantic strength to pierce the cloud.

6. Good question! The way I understand it is that those genetic (and spiritual) codes are tiny fragments of Preservation itself. I would guess that there no good way to predict what Misting you will get (or if you will get an Allomancer at all. Tevidian had strong genetics, but I don't think he was an Allomancer). Certainly in noble houses like Venture, there was a lot of diversity in their small amount of Mistings. If Misting abilities were directly hereditary, Straff (Tineye) would have made Zane a Tineye as well, which is not what we see happening.

7. It's very difficult to say. I can't even make a convincing argument there ;) So, instead, I shall say what my Table of Allomantic Metals says (I knew there was a reason for mounting it above my computer: quick reference!): "In alloy form, it produces various expanded mental and temporal effects." I wonder what that would mean if you alloyed it with a Physical metal... Now that'd be an interesting question for Brandon.
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Re: Some questions about Mistborn magic *spoilers for Mistborn trilogy*
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2010, 11:33:57 PM »
As for the atium-alloy question, the only clue we have is the malatum, which reversed the gold's effect, maybe the answer is as simple as that? It'd make a internal metal into external one.
But that makes me wonder, because Chromium and Nicrosil are reversed versions of aluminium and duralumin, and they are not their alloys, which could prove my theory wrong.

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Re: Some questions about Mistborn magic *spoilers for Mistborn trilogy*
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2010, 12:06:43 AM »
I can't believe I missed this topic. I'm not doing well enough at my forum stalking, apparently.

Virtually all of these questions have highly likely answers, except for #7. Also, I will go out a limb on #1, because that question hasn't been directly asked. But, here are my answers for you:

1. No. Metals are the focus for Preservation's power. All burning a metal does is unlock Preservation's power, and thus it grants the particular Allomantic ability corresponding to the metal. Burning should not be taken literally. There are other focuses in the Cosmere, and I asked Brandon once. The Commands in Warbreaker for Awakening, the Aons in Elantris... All of these are immensely magical in nature. I do not believe that "burning" metals would actually produce heat. Remember, these terms are in-world. The first Allomancers probably created the term, and its rather catchy, so it must have stuck, regardless of it being factually accurate.
That is what I assumed, but I do seem to remember one of the characters mentioning how the familiar warmth sprang up in their stomach, or something to that effect. That could just be my mind adding things in after hearing it called burning and flaring all trilogy long, but if they felt the warmth, it might be possible that a physical side effect of Allomancy is heat. Just like Endowment drains color and drawing the Aons produces Light. The Light is obviously not the main focus (unless it's Aon Ashe ;)), but it is there.

But I wouldn't be surprised if it is a purely symbolical term. The metals disappear, and you can use them at different speeds. For a medieval society, almost the only vocabulary word that would fit would be 'burn'.

2. Absolutely. Atium has its Feruchemical power of youth, so Lerasium must have such an ability as well.
No, you misunderstood me. I'm not asking if Lerasuim has Feruchemical powers, all Allomantic metals have functions in Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. I'm asking if a Lerasium-mind is an everything-mind, and a Feruchemist could store heat, wakefulness, speed, weight, everything in a Lerasium-mind. Maybe not all at the same time, meaning they have to tap and drain all the heat out before they start storing speed, but then again, maybe all at the same time.

It's not very awesome of a power, but it would make sense. Hasn't it been confirmed that a Lerasium Hemalurgy spike steals all powers from the victim? I know it's been theorized.

3. We do not know that Lerasium-Steel creates a Coinshot for certain. For all we know, creation of Mistings is just another "side effect". I would imagine that whatever Lerasium-Steel does, it will not store precisely the same Feruchemical ability. However, I do not know. There's no basis for that theory, as we do not know Feruchemical powers of any God metal alloy.
I thought side-effect was the wrong phrase, and that a Mistborn burning Lerasium gained 1 Original Mistborn Strength™  in addition to what they originally had. But good point. We don't know enough Feruchemy to really make good theories.

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4) If someone is Hemalurgically imbued with a Feruchemist's power, could they tap that Feruchemist's metalminds? For instance, Feruchemist A spends his whole life storing senses in Tin, and then is captured by Inquisitors, who use a Tin spike to steal his Feruchemy powers and add them to Inquisitor A. Could Inquisitor A then tap Feruchemist A's tinminds? After hearing Hemalurgy described as "stapling a part of someone else's soul to your own", it sounds like it could be possible. (After glancing through the Mistborn wiki on Wikia, it looks like it would have to be a Brass spike that is used)

4. First of all, thank you referring to Hemalurgy as being "imbued". I need to start a petition for Brandon to use that term permanently. In the MB annotations, Brandon calls such metals "Hemalurgically charged", which I think is confusing it with Feruchemy.

The simple answer to this question is no.

Now, I know this for certain. I had a fellow TWGer ask Brandon at a signing. Basically, just like an Allomancer can't burn another person's Feruchemically charged metals, a Hemalurgist cannot either. In order for that to happen, the spike would actually need to be imbued from yourself, which is more than slightly ridiculous.
Dang. It makes so much sense. Just to be clear, I know a Hemalurgist can't burn just anyone's Feruchemically charged metals, but not even the person that was used to grant them Feruchemical powers? It's the same person's ability tapping the metalminds, it's just been transferred to someone else.

5. Others have answered this one really well, but to expound a bit: Inquisitor powers also depended on what skaa Mistings they could find at the time of their creation. That's a major hindrance there.
Not to get sidetracked, but if they really couldn't find any skaa mistings to use, couldn't they re-use spikes? There would be more power-loss but it's better than nothing.

In terms of Inquisitors "doubling up", does Hemalurgy work like that? If someone takes three Pewter spikes instead of one, does that make them automatically three times stronger than a one-spike Inquistor? Or possibly stronger by a factor of 3 rather than a multiple?

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My answer to that would be it depends on the genetic strength of the Allomancers you are spiking. Obviously, spiking someone like one of the Original Allomancers will increase the recipient's abilities much more than a skaa Misting who has noble blood three generations removed.
Yes, I agree. And obviously it's not 3 times stronger, but more like something like 2.7, because you have to figure power-loss in.

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I also believe that Allomantic strength is a major factor in piercing copperclouds at all. If you were a weak Smoker, such copperclouds would be easier to break. You don't necessarily need to double up on your Bronze if you already have sufficient Allomantic strength (like the Lord Ruler). I think you just need to break a threshold on Allomantic strength relative to coppercloud you are attempting to pierce.
I agree here too. Original Strength Smokers' Copperclouds were probably unpiercable, even for Original Strength Seekers/Mistborn

6. Good question! The way I understand it is that those genetic (and spiritual) codes are tiny fragments of Preservation itself. I would guess that there no good way to predict what Misting you will get (or if you will get an Allomancer at all. Tevidian had strong genetics, but I don't think he was an Allomancer). Certainly in noble houses like Venture, there was a lot of diversity in their small amount of Mistings. If Misting abilities were directly hereditary, Straff (Tineye) would have made Zane a Tineye as well, which is not what we see happening.
Yes, but is it more likely for a Misting to have a same-power-Misting child? So they have a 30% chance to have a Allomancer child, and of that 30%, a 20% chance to have a Mistborn, a 30% chance to have a random Misting, and a 50% chance to have a same-power-Misting? (Or to get real complicated, a 20%-Mistborn, a 30%-other Misting, a 30%-same Misting, and a 20%-other Paired Misting, (Meaning a Lurcher instead of a Coinshot, a Rioter instead of a Soother, etc)

It should be obvious, but those numbers are all made up. Just trying to provide an example. There'd be some pretty crazy Punnett Squarage involved.

7. It's very difficult to say. I can't even make a convincing argument there ;) So, instead, I shall say what my Table of Allomantic Metals says (I knew there was a reason for mounting it above my computer: quick reference!): "In alloy form, it produces various expanded mental and temporal effects." I wonder what that would mean if you alloyed it with a Physical metal... Now that'd be an interesting question for Brandon.
Perhaps it shows only what metals are going to be Allomantically Pushed/Pulled. Or how strongly a Thug or Tineye is going to flare and use their metals. A very specific and weaker form of Atium, like a Lerasium Alloy is a specific and weaker form of Lerasium.

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Re: Some questions about Mistborn magic *spoilers for Mistborn trilogy*
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2010, 12:46:50 AM »
2. Absolutely. Atium has its Feruchemical power of youth, so Lerasium must have such an ability as well.
No, you misunderstood me. I'm not asking if Lerasuim has Feruchemical powers, all Allomantic metals have functions in Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. I'm asking if a Lerasium-mind is an everything-mind, and a Feruchemist could store heat, wakefulness, speed, weight, everything in a Lerasium-mind. Maybe not all at the same time, meaning they have to tap and drain all the heat out before they start storing speed, but then again, maybe all at the same time.

It's not very awesome of a power, but it would make sense. Hasn't it been confirmed that a Lerasium Hemalurgy spike steals all powers from the victim? I know it's been theorized.

Oh, my bad. Well, instinctively I say no. We don't know enough about the origin of Feruchemy or any of lerasium's other abilities to make a judgment there.
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