same old topic: dating sucks, and so does pressure

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

Okay, I don't know too much about anglican arranged marriages, so I am basing my knowledge of arranged marriages on my knowledge of oriental arranged marriages.  Is there a large difference?  I was going for the human right of choice, the right to choose things that affect your life.  If I am thinking something incorrect then by all means correct me.  It is extremely possible my last point was incorrect, if there is more to the Anglican form of arranged marriages.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

If you don't want advice don't post asking for it and then insult people for trying to help out

Honestly though I don't think you are taking advantage of the base that they've built. You admit that you openly dislike the structure of dating that everyone else accepts. You wait for other people to do the leg work (ie girls call you back, pay etc...). God helps those who help themselves man.

Its hard to figure out what kind of help you really want beyond someone pushing a full fledged marriage candidate in front of you with a hat full of money offering to pay for all of your dates.

Nothings that easy. Nowhere in the Bible or Book of Mormon does it say... and at age 28 Ookla will be granted a wife, a great job, and all the things he desires.  Im sorry if the culture there is getting on your case about being single, Im sorry you don't like being single. At some point your going to have to say hey, I need to get out there and meet people, and then if I like spending time with them then Im going to do whatever it takes to stay with those people.

I met my wife in high school when she tried to sell me a box of Grapefruit. I dated her until I graduated, we broke up and I didn't see her for almost 4 years. I never expected to see her again actually because we broke up because she got into a party scene I didn't like, Drugs, Alcohol the whole deal. And I came back one winter and saw her and she was almost about to die. No lie, jaundiced skin,cyrotic liver the whole deal. So I didn't talk to her for a while, it was just too painful. And then I got stationed here and on a whim I called her and she had gotten over that stage of her life and I was ready and it didn't come down to who paid for dates or who asked who. We wanted to be together as much as possible. We knew we were right for each other.
So these girls you want to call you back and pay, you really don't want to marry, because you don't get the soul ache that comes from meeting the right person at the right time. None of that dating stuff matters when that happens and nobody else can help you experience that. So Im sorry if I don't get what kind of help your asking for.

[fuzzyoctopus]

If you don't want advice don't post asking for it and then insult people for trying to help out

So... where exactly was he asking for advice?  Gee, sure wasn't in the post he started with anyway.   See the thread up top?  Rants and stuff?  He was ranting.  He has a right to rant.  If someone volunteers advice I don't want to hear, I'm totally justified in blowing them off.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Fair enough, I just dont like being blown off, or being the only one responded too when Im saying the same things as other people on the same thread. Ie. I thought it was rude to quote the whole of a post I made and then make it seem like I was saying something other than what I was with the comments underneath. I never suggested that there wasnt an alternative to the way dating works now, but rocking the boat while screaming and scaring the fish with dynamite seems to working just great for him neh?(Ok so I am now jokingly). The problem with the alternate route is that you need to be able to tell someone what your expecting and it doesn't sound like thats what's happening. If a girl expects a guy to call her back, and the guy doesn't say something like,... hey if you liked this date, then you call me (only with much more poise and tact) then no one should have any reasonable expectation to get a call back from the girl (who by the way is now puzzled you never called and asked her back out and suddenly wondering if she did something wrong) Likewise if the guy wants her to pay then that needs to be out in the open... along with the reason for doing it... because its only fair.

I also think its unfair and patently untrue to say that the church has done nothing to help people out dating. Individual members maybe need to say less to people about what they want them to do, but the Church offers tons of way for singles to meet each other and plenty of guidance both through counseling and spiritual means. The Bishop for instance was a lot of help for me when I was having relationship issues as was the rest of the priesthood when I got to talk to them in a more serious way. A lot of responsibility for dating and marriage are on the person looking to get married and not anyone else's.

Perhaps separating the members from the church in this situation would rankle me a bit less.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Jeff, I guess I DID read your post wrong. I apologize. SOMETHING I read in the thread gave me the impression that people had the opinion my post was in reaction to.

The problem with the alternate route is that you need to be able to tell someone what your expecting and it doesn't sound like thats what's happening.

Well it's not happening because I've never tried it (or expected it) yet. As I said earlier, "Of course it would have to be explained somehow ahead of time, not just dropped in at the end of the first date. I'm still working on how best to do that."

Not especially, considering what girls in their late 20's are looking for in a relationship. Stability, Security and a connection. It would be nice to say ok you pay for half the dates, but expecting girls to just realize that they have to pay on the second date in, or that they have to call you back because they aren't hip to your special plan is a bit ambitious.

I can't offer stability or security (at least financially? what else would you mean?), and I don't know what you mean by connection. That doesn't seem like it's going to change soon, so...I guess I shouldn't date? (And church people shouldn't bug me about getting married without first asking me how secure my finances are?) But as I said, I wouldn't just expect girls to guess I wanted them to call me or pay (only if pay is involved of course--they can arrange non-pay dates as easily as me)--I would explain it before the first date.

So these girls you want to call you back and pay, you really don't want to marry, because you don't get the soul ache that comes from meeting the right person at the right time. None of that dating stuff matters when that happens and nobody else can help you experience that.

Your personal story sounds like an example of divine intervention to me. And I think I already said dating isn't a good way to get to marry someone.

I also think its unfair and patently untrue to say that the church has done nothing to help people out dating.

Okay. Passive help then. But no active help. Just active harassment.

[42]

You know, I don't know how much work you've put into getting married. Yet, after hearing your recent rants, Ookla, you just sound lazy about getting married. Like you expect it to just happen without a lot of effort.

From how I understand it, getting married is supposed to be a hard, stressful, time-consuming event. I guess you have to put so much work into it so that you dread getting divorced (or widowed) and then having to start the whole process again.

[House of Mustard]

Hear, hear, 42.

Ookla, in your first post you yourself mentioned the many opportunities that the church give to help you get married:  

I go to ward prayer, break the fast, family home evening, linger longer, ward temple trips, and other things of that sort.

What more do you expect?  That the bishop calls someone to marry you?  Getting married is hard work.  For that matter, BEING married is hard work.  If you don't want to put any of your own effort into finding a wife, then I can't imagine that you'd be able to keep one.

Okay. Passive help then. But no active help.

If that's your view, it sounds like the church is putting just as much effort into this as you are.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Ok this post was edited becuse I realized that some people may have misunderstood what I meant.

I can't offer stability or security (at least financially? what else would you mean?), and I don't know what you mean by connection.

As far as stability and security I also meant a safe and comfortable home environment. A girl has to know you wont hurt them or demean them when youve had a bad day. They need to know that you arent negative, and can be supportive even when life is crappy. . Not that you do any of these things, and I really want to emphasise that I dont think you do.

But one of the purposes of dating is to get an idea about what a person is like for good or for bad.
So yeah you can offer stability and security, and I bet with some dedication you could even handle finances.

Financial security is not something to snear at. If you think datings expensive, try hospital visits, diapers, food for two (or more) every day not to mention assumed debt. I stopped dating a girl when I realized her school debt was over 18,000 dollars and she wasn't doing anything to pay them back and not saving any money at all. Of course this person had been out of school for almost 6 years and repeatedly squandered money on things she didnt need and couldnt afford. Things got really bad when she crashed her truck, and went thorugh a whole saga to get alternate transportation that ended up putting her in a larger amount of debt with a vehicle that could barely roll. She was chronically late to work and got fired from two jobs she needed badly.
Mainly what ticked me off was that she refused to take 1 test to get a 15 dollar an hour raise which would have handled her payments for her loan and stabilized her debt. Even after she borrowed two hundred dollars from me to do it. She used that money to buy craft stuff for herself.
 That says a lot about a person, and while I many not be wealthy in my life, Im sure as heck not going to be in debt.


Like we said though dating doesn't have to be expensive. There are free concerts, parks, shows, fairs and other things you could do to have a great time. My wife and I worked at a volunteer theater company painting sets as a date plenty of times.

I bet there are poetry readings, amateur open- mic nights and comedy shows too. Try to Cook at home instead of eating out. Save cash for a once a month big date, and dont buy a lot of gifts nic-nacks and brikabracks. Have friends over and watch a movie or have a small party.

Almost forgot as far as the word connection go's I mean sex appeal. ...not by itself because its more of a combination of sex appeal,  comfort and a good rapport. Women have to be attracted to you and have to feel they can be themselves around you. Above all they have to have fun with you. And thats on top of the intelletual stimulation and spiritiual bond you have.

[fuzzyoctopus]

This is beginning to disgust me, so I'm bowing out before I insult anyone in a way I will later regret.  Please feel free to IM me if you want my opinion on anything, or if you just want someone to rant to, Peter.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

If you own one of these your aren't a safe and secure candidate for marriage.
http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v97/maddrjeffe/jeff/sqeagleWP.jpg

[Peter Ahlstrom]

I put effort into it while I was in college, since it appears to be all right to try to get married then even though you don't have a job. (Though I did have a job on campus that paid the bills, and never got any student loans.) Since then though I didn't have a job and thus didn't feel comfortable putting effort into it, especially with a certain person's "start earning $40,000 a year within 2 years" expectation from my prior experience. Now at last I HAVE a job so I consider myself on the market again, though there's no way I'll get $40,000 a year anytime soon.

I already said what I would prefer: a church-run mandatory database. What do I expect? I expect them to shut up about it if they can't offer anything active. If they want to know if I'm taking advantage of what they offer, they should ask if I'm going to the activities (I am) and leave it at that. They should realize things happen through divine intervention and lay off.

The type of arranged marriages I'm talking about are not forced marriages. You're basically set up by your parents but it's up to you to decide if you get along.

As long as you're using the missionary thing, remember that member referrals are some large number (I'll say 9) times more likely to result in success than knocking on doors. The church has realized this and talks about it quite often. If marring the single people off is so important to them, then they should implement something similar for that. And yes, I have told people before I'd be happy to be set up on dates, and no one ever has.

Unless I remember incorrectly the only thing I asked for advice on in this thread was whether I should start a website about this.

It's NOT something that's on my mind all the time or that I stress much about. This rant thread was brought on specifically by people's "dating is a commandment" comments at church this week.

And Jeff I never insulted you; my sarcastic comments were right in line with your "Once upon a time they had singles wards too and that proved to be a bad thing."

[Entsuropi]

(There was a story in the Mormon SF anthology Washed by a Wave of Wind that explored the church setting up three-month "for time" tryout temple sealings. Am I the only one who thought that would actually be an idea worth taking seriously?)

Looks like someone has been reading up on the Celts recently. That was a religious practice of theirs. If the couple still wanted to be married at the end of the season (at the next Solstice i guess) then they could make it binding. Otherwise, anullment was happy.

Funny people, the celts.

And I would just like to share an amusing thought i had, years ago:

'The guide to geeks getting girlfriends. A 2 step guide.

1) Become Homosexual.
2) Find another geek who has also completed task 1.'

[Maxwell]

if it's the geek's guide to getting "girlfriends" then wouldnt you need to be a girl

[JP Dogberry]

This is a most interesting debate. I have enjoyed reading it.

Given I am neither LDS, nor have I ever had a date, I have nothing to add.

Yes, I realise this is a "Good Post" post, and they went out of fashion years ago. I don't care.

[The Holy Saint, Grand High Poobah, Master of Monkeys, Ehlers]

uhm... well, aside from the whole, "You don't need to DATE to meet people" (you can do anything where you interact to learn about a person) and "Not ever activity is a date" (you can do something and invite someone just because they might be interested in the activity, so not every single "want to go do this" does or should constitute an interest in potential marriage, and the apparently not so obvious fact that not everyone (not even everyone worth marrying) has the emotional security to say that they're interested right away even when they are... I only have one thing to say

(ok, actually I'm also going to over look the whole bit about whether you asked for advice, because there WERE invitations to married people to propose better systems)

but my one thing:

Have you considered telling the people who ask you those questions that you find them (the questions) very distasteful and would appreciate not being asked again? It seems like that would be so much more productive than coming up with a system that will scare people off and they won't understand and then ranting about it to those who are uninvolved.

Just a thought. You want everyone to be clear on the communication, and you aren't doing the single most effective and easy step to clear what you claim is the biggest bother to you. Just tell the questioner that it isn't any of their business. Be very clear but polite that you would like them never to ask that of you again.