same old topic: dating sucks, and so does pressure

[stacer]

Um, Gorgon, he was saying that he thought there should be a national database of *church members*. I didn't hear anything about making it federally run. By "mandatory" he probably means about as "mandatory" as 19 year old men going on missions in the LDS church. And I'm thinking you're taking it a little too seriously anyway. He's complaining of something that's very specific to LDS singles in their late 20s.

[fuzzyoctopus]

Am I the only one who thinks that it's ridiculous for him to giving advice, Devil's advocate or not, since he's not anywhere near Ookla's age, and he's not Mormon, so he doesn't even understand the pressure that comes with being older and single in Mormon culture?

[Master Xaio]

Give him a break, he's just trying to help.  No reason why he can't give his opinion.

Um, this is going to sound stupid, on a slight tanget, but what does LDS stand for?

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

and actually his first two points were quite valid...

LDS stands for Latter Day Saints...

[Peter Ahlstrom]

 This is because you are complaining about being able to get a date and you are lowering your chances of having a second date.

Actually, I'm not really complaining about being able to get a date. I would prefer to get married without ever going on a date at all.

If getting a date were all I cared about, I would just ask anyone. I don't WANT to marry just anyone, so I'm not going to ask just anyone. And I am through with putting forth all the effort.

Imagine telling a girlfriend, "Okay, next time you pay, call me..."

Exactly. Just imagine it! Isn't it a liberating notion?

I think my date splitting idea makes FAR more sense than the "guy has to set up and pay for all the dates and if the girl doesn't want to date him she makes up stupid excuses and ditches him and doesn't return phone calls and he's just supposed to guess" (and entirely sexist) system now in place. Of course it would have to be explained somehow ahead of time, not just dropped in at the end of the first date. I'm still working on how best to do that.

Will I actually use this idea personally? Right now, I think I shall. When it comes down to it though in emotional things logic goes right out the window, so even though it makes sense to me now, who knows. And I currently think if a girl is so ingrained in this system that SUCKS that she would be too closed-minded to consider my idea, then she doesn't deserve me.

Why don't I want to work the system instead of fighting it? I don't want to just get married. I want to get married to someone who can get along with ME. And I am NOT desperate enough to want to change myself. I like myself fine the way I am, thank you very much.

I never said my society-wide ideas were actually practical to implement. I'm just saying that if such a system were already in place and accepted by everyone, it would work a heck of a lot better than what we have now. I have an idea, people who are married should wear rings so you can tell they're married! Nah, we'll never convince everyone so why even mention the idea.

Anyway my complaint is twofold: the difficulty of FINDING someone I want to date in the first place, and secondly that dating sucks as a preparation for marriage.

(There was a story in the Mormon SF anthology Washed by a Wave of Wind that explored the church setting up three-month "for time" tryout temple sealings. Am I the only one who thought that would actually be an idea worth taking seriously?)

Stacer:

You have to understand--and perhaps you're different, but very few guys know this till it happens to them--when a girl asks a guy out, he gets all nervous: "Oh, wow, she must like me a lot, I'm not ready for that, I don't like her like that" etc. And they run scared. When all the girl is thinking is what a guy would be thinking had he asked her out the first time--that she'd like to hang out with him more, get to know him. But a girl asking a guy out--nothing good has ever come of it, in my experience.

Maybe that's the problem there. Girls don't know what guys want from dates. If a guy asks a girl out, she thinks he'd like to hang out with her more, get to know her? That ain't what it means for me. I have no desire to date someone I just want to hang out with. Any girl I ask out starts off as someone I want to marry.

"Oh, wow, he must like me a lot, I'm not ready for that, I don't like him like that"--I think this is exactly what girls should be thinking when a guy asks them out. That or "Oh, wow, he must like me a lot, I'm ready for that, I like him like that."

I think dating should be something ONLY people who are specifically wanting to get married should be allowed to do. Anyone who thinks that's ridiculous please suggest something else that only people who want to get married can do so that we can sift through the chaff.

If I ask someone out and she sees no potential marriage, she should say no! Or at least tell me up front "I don't see any potential now, but I'll let you know after the date whether I see any then." Asking me out for date #2 would be accepted as admission of perceived potential. (Of course, the incompetence of dating as mate potential measuring stick then factors in. The deck is stacked, and the dealer isn't friendly.)
 

One thing I've learned in my life: if a guy is interested in me, he'll ask me out. And usually they don't ask me out, so I just have to assume that I'm not the type of girl guys are interested in. As I've ranted about before, I can be the "friend-girl" all I want, but they never want more.

On the other hand, in this regard, I take the same sort of evidence you see and come to exactly the same conclusion as you (but not about you).

----

Right now the best way to me to find someone to marry seems to be: blind luck, and/or divine intervention. And you can't be anxiously engaged in either one of those. (These also seem the best ways to get a job.)

[fuzzyoctopus]

2 quotes, first of all.

(There was a story in the Mormon SF anthology Washed by a Wave of Wind that explored the church setting up three-month "for time" tryout temple sealings. Am I the only one who thought that would actually be an idea worth taking seriously?)

Ok. It's not even 7am and I'm exhausted. That quote seems horrifically sacreligious to me. Were they suggesting they change things so you can get a 3-month trial civil marriage, then if it works out you can get sealed right away?  That makes sense.  Sounds better, less damning.  I'll assume that's what they were talking 'bout.

Right now the best way to me to find someone to marry seems to be: blind luck, and/or divine intervention. And you can't be anxiously engaged in either one of those. (These also seem the best ways to get a job.)

Sucks, but accurate. I know it was devine intervention in my case, but ah well.  'S a good quote.  I'm going to use that.

Third.  Anyone on this board who knows Ookla personally, from real life is probably going to think (like I do) that his suggestions make perfect sense for him.  It's just the people who have never met you and don't know anything about your personality who think you're flying off the handle. You're nifty.

ok. done.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Exactly. Just imagine it! Isn't it a liberating notion?  

Not especially, considering what girls in their late 20's are looking for in a relationship. Stability, Security and a connection. It would be nice to say ok you pay for half the dates, but expecting girls to just realize that they have to pay on the second date in, or that they have to call you back because they aren't hip to your special plan is a bit ambitious.

But yes it would be nice to not funnel hundreds of dollars into series of dates. I think thats because we aren't honest about how much we spend on dates with women. A dinner and movie can break my entertainment budget for the month. (2 people 2 tickets 20 bucks, 30 to 40 bucks for dinner 10 bucks for snacks etc). But who says dates have to cost money either. Figure out some cheap or god forbid free things to do instead of eating or going to movies or whatever is so expensive about dates.  

Thats as much of a problem as the issue of paying money for dates.
Your near LA, heck there are tons of things to do for free.

I think that would be more revolutionary and refreshing... not having to pay for dates at all (at least not like other people do).

For instance instead of going out to eat together, cook a meal yourself.

[stacer]

I was about to say the same thing. What is *really* bothering you, the fact that you have to ask someone out and find something interesting about them, or the fact that you have to pay for it? Because if it's the money, do something that doesn't cost it. Summer's a great time for that, too--go for a bike ride, have a picnic, go to a free outdoor movie (I don't know about LA, but Boston has a Friday night series in the park), go to a Shakespeare in the Park performance (all my examples come from Boston, sorry).

There are plenty of things that cost little to no money. I know plenty of girls who feel comfortable asking a guy the second time if he's already asked her out.

Maybe that's the problem there. Girls don't know what guys want from dates. If a guy asks a girl out, she thinks he'd like to hang out with her more, get to know her? That ain't what it means for me. I have no desire to date someone I just want to hang out with. Any girl I ask out starts off as someone I want to marry.
 
"Oh, wow, he must like me a lot, I'm not ready for that, I don't like him like that"--I think this is exactly what girls should be thinking when a guy asks them out. That or "Oh, wow, he must like me a lot, I'm ready for that, I like him like that."
 
I think dating should be something ONLY people who are specifically wanting to get married should be allowed to do. Anyone who thinks that's ridiculous please suggest something else that only people who want to get married can do so that we can sift through the chaff.

Um, here's the problem: yes, your ultimate goal *is* marriage. But you're putting WAY too much pressure on the beginning of a relationship by having to decide whether you'll want to marry this girl BEFORE YOU GO OUT ON ONE DATE. And I don't think the girl should have to decide that either. I think in LDS culture it's a given that you'll both want to pursue that eventually if the relationship goes well. But you really just can't be thinking that seriously on a first date, a second date, a third date... DATES ARE NOT COMMITMENTS. Neither the guy nor the girl should think so. And this is the biggest thing that's messed up about LDS dating, because so many feelings are hurt because one or the other feels like a first date is a commitment.

Like I said before, if we all dated more, one date would not seem that big a deal. We need to get back to what dating is about: having fun with another person. Why would you want to marry someone if you can't enjoy their company?

As a sidenote--yes, I agree with Fuzzy that such suggestions do go with what I know of your personality, though I didn't know you as long as everyone else. I don't think you're flying off the handle, but I do think the ideas don't really float as generalities.

[House of Mustard]

I have to agree with Stacer's comments--dating is not (and should not be) a commitment.  It sounds more like you're looking for a business deal--cutting all of the romance and fun out of meeting someone, and getting right down to setting the terms.

Right now the best way to me to find someone to marry seems to be: blind luck, and/or divine intervention. And you can't be anxiously engaged in either one of those. (These also seem the best ways to get a job.)

If you want to look at it from a divine intervention perspective, think of dating as your mission, and marraige as baptism.  (Non-LDS forum members can probably ignore all of this.)  How many street contacts does it take to get into a first discussion?  50?  100?  And then how many first discussions lead to a second discussion?  10?  20?  And how many lead to a baptism?  The point is that you can't not date and still expect things to progress toward a serious relationship or marraige.  For that matter, you can't avoid dating while you're waiting for The One to come along.  That's like street contacting, but not talking to anybody until you're certain that you see someone who will get baptized.  The truth of missionary work is that you never know who will listen, because you never really know their hearts.  There's a parallel with dating--you can't really judge someone as relationship/marraige material without getting to know them and dating is one of the best ways to do that.

I'm all in favor of being discriminating.  After all, your decision of who you're marrying is going to affect you for eternity.  I'm certainly not saying you should lower your standards or settle.  I'm just saying that by not dating you're effectively taking yourself off the market -- not declaring yourself as eager to marry (you complain that there ought to be a better method to know who wants to get married, but what kind of message are you sending to girls?  What is a girl supposed to think when you don't ask people out regularly, and then you wish that they'd pay?  Are they supposed to just guess that you're wanting to get married, or even have a serious relationship?)

[Peter Ahlstrom]

no no, my biggest problem is that the church people make such a big deal about getting married but don't help you at all.

I'm too busy today to respond to the rest but I'll probably get to it in a couple days.

[Mad Dr Jeffe]

Ok I dont get that at all. you should be thankful church people dont help that much. Getting married is the most spiritual and personal thing you can do. Its not like coming over to help with washing a car, or doing a food drive. The church does plenty to help you start meeting other people. Youth dances, D&C classes, heck they even run several colleges. Once upon a time they had singles wards too and that proved to be a bad thing. I think Euol or maybe mustard said it best when he compared marriage to a mission. You dont give up trying because the method sucks. Because it has a low rate of success. The Church is there for all kinds of support, but ultimately if falls upon your shoulders to go out and find a wife. Dont say that they havent helped when they've already given you tons of ways to attract one. Things like a code of living that should make you highly attractive to the right woman, a sense of decency, morality and honesty. Reverence and meekness, and strong courage when the time is right.  In theory it should have also given you a a running dialog with the lord allmighty and his son Jesus Christ and finally the holy spirit. The membership is even there with cool dating ideas and tips but no one is going to be able to make it easier for you to find someone, because they cant, and because even if they did, the bulk of people wouldnt listen.  

[Maxwell]

bingo.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Ok I dont get that at all. you should be thankful church people dont help that much. Getting married is the most spiritual and personal thing you can do. Its not like coming over to help with washing a car, or doing a food drive. The church does plenty to help you start meeting other people. Youth dances, D&C classes, heck they even run several colleges. Once upon a time they had singles wards too and that proved to be a bad thing. I think Euol or maybe mustard said it best when he compared marriage to a mission. You dont give up trying because the method sucks. Because it has a low rate of success. The Church is there for all kinds of support, but ultimately if falls upon your shoulders to go out and find a wife. Dont say that they havent helped when they've already given you tons of ways to attract one. Things like a code of living that should make you highly attractive to the right woman, a sense of decency, morality and honesty. Reverence and meekness, and strong courage when the time is right.  In theory it should have also given you a a running dialog with the lord allmighty and his son Jesus Christ and finally the holy spirit. The membership is even there with cool dating ideas and tips but no one is going to be able to make it easier for you to find someone, because they cant, and because even if they did, the bulk of people wouldnt listen.  

Hmm...I must be married already, since they've been helping me so long and I've been taking advantage of it! Obviously this system works for everyone, since even Sheri Dew is married. There's no need for any sort of alternatives for people who have social and personality differences, since everyone is exactly the same and responds the same way to circumstances.

Makes me wonder why people in the Bible messed with that arranged marriage thing. God probably implemented dating long ago, but took it from the earth because the people were too wicked, until it was restored in D&C section 139.

[GorgonlaVacaTremendo]

I don't WANT to marry just anyone, so I'm not going to ask just anyone.

Huh, if you don't want to marry just anyone why are you wondering why they took out arranged marriages?  This is probably the EXCACT REASON.  I mean, you would be stuck in an "eternal bond" with someone you didn't even get to choose?  Plus it's a void of human rights.

[fuzzyoctopus]

Violation of human rights? You dont know much about arranged marriages do you?