January 3 - LongTimeUnderdog - The Name of God, Jin'Cathul chapter 3

[LongTimeUnderdog]

And so the next chapter in the amazing struggle that is Jin'Cathul's life.  Sad, but here it is.

[Hamster]

Okay, so I’m sorry for not critiquing your other chapters, but don’t worry, I did read them, and I have to say that I find your concept and world very intriguing. It’s unique enough without being too far out there. I like that.

   Now, maybe I’m missing something here, but it seems to me that this chapter is almost a rewrite, because I definitely recognize bits and pieces of what’s happening, but there are also large chunks of new material. Or maybe I’m just having a weird case of déjà vu. 

Anyhow,  one thing stood out right away that I did not like about this chapter: it was supposed to be six years forward, but I don’t sense a great deal of difference in Jin’s character. I had to reread the part about it being six years, because to me, it could have been one or two years and I would have believed that instantly, but six is pushing it. I also don’t want you to tell me that he is changed, like here

suffering for six years had definitely changed him.

Especially because I didn’t notice the definite change; sure he seems like he’s a little older and mature, but not enough to warrant for that amount of time, this sentence somewhat irks me(of course this is just my opinion, others might disagree).

 Also, with the harshness of the environment and the intensity of the whipping, I find it hard to believe that he would have survived, or not grown tougher and more cynical of life after six years of it.  I doubt he would reflect on how much he missed silks either after six years. Maybe in the first year or so, but he would move on after six years. In my opinion (which isn’t worth that much…) Jin would not be reflecting on the Shroud and his first escape attempt and silks and his father after six years, they would be a little more distant in his memory. For instance, I would assume he would be beaten for mentioning missing silks or his past, and since then would learn to equate them with pain, and therefore NOT reflect about them any more.(sorry, I just noticed that you mention this when he’s thinking about his father, and tears, and pain, sorry for missing that). Anyhow, I’m focusing so much on this, which really isn’t a deal breaker in your story, because there isn’t a whole lot to find wrong. Overall, I would like more show and less tell, and for you to make it a little more believable, especially in the terrible environment he is in.

Okay, so I’ve got one more big beef with this chapter, (still on the whole six year topic, I know I’m beating my own dead horse, but whatever) and that is his lack of muscle and any sort of fighting ability. I would have thought that slaves who are trained to be gladiators, trained to fight, would, after six years of training, have at least some small ability to fight. Especially for what we are told(more often than shown) that Jin is a brilliant kid, and a lot of fighting is using your brain and strategy and technique. Yet he is portrayed as helpless when he fights Burm, and he is held in contempt by everything for his lack of fighting prowess. However, he does beat the boy in the fight near the end, and that fight was to me exactly as he should be. But my problem is that it’s inconsistent with how he is supposed to be a baby.

Anyhow, even though I may seem overly critical of this story, I’m really enjoying it, and I like Jin’s character. His situation makes it very easy to feel sorry for him and root for him. I definitely want to keep reading and find out what happens with him. I’m also very hooked with the Shroud and the sparks from his fingers, I really want to know more about what it is and all that magic system mystery jazz that fantasy writers always include. I look forward to the next instalment.

[ErikHolmes]

I liked the story and your writing style but I agree with Hamster, I'm not really feeling that he's been there six years. Not six years fighting anyway.

Also, some of the numbers you threw out confused me. He's been there six years, but has had eight years of schooling. But he's now 12.

For how smart he's supposed to be, he doesn't seem like he's learned much during his time there. He acts like someone who's been there six weeks, not six years.

The combat bothered me just a tad. Unless these kids are all using weapons that are normally non-lethal, then there would be a lot of deaths from the way you describe them fighting. When he took that chop from the axe on his back and kept on fighting, I immediately wondered if I was reading a story set in one of the dungeons and dragons settings.

Good story though. Despite my negative comments, I liked it. It was a long submission but I had no problem reading through it, which is really a good sign.

[LongTimeUnderdog]

The combat bothered me just a tad. Unless these kids are all using weapons that are normally non-lethal, then there would be a lot of deaths from the way you describe them fighting. When he took that chop from the axe on his back and kept on fighting, I immediately wondered if I was reading a story set in one of the dungeons and dragons settings.

Well actually I'm a huge fan of Dark Sun . . .

But to address your concern:  I've done things like Kung fu, karate and stuff for . . . well . . a long time.  When I had students, one of the hardest things to get them to do is commit to their actions.  Weapons on bare skin are a bit nastier and require less commitment to attacks.  Now by commitment I mean, following through.   Not changing your mind mid strike, or stopping yourself  because you think the other guy is going to counter.

Earlier in the fight, Jin was able to strike his weapon and push it out of the way, pulling the kid off balance, and leaving him open to an attack.  The kid was able to avoid the full damage from the attack by dropping himself closer to the ground, so death was avoided.  What I'm trying to portray here is that the boy, originally thinking Jin would die quickly, is starting to second guess himself and Jin, so he's not committing all the way into the attacks, so these bone weapons (which don't cut all the well anyway) cut, but don't cut deep enough.  Also, unless you strike below the rib cage, or break the ribs, or sever the spine, cuts to the back are not very fatal.  In fact a lot of knife fighting experts will tell you to use the back of your arm as bait in a knife fight because there are no veins or arteries back there.  Maybe I need to go back over my anatomy but that's what I was going for anyway.   To give a personal example, I've taken a hit just like the one I'm trying to portray in my throat.  Jin's thoughts after the hit were meant to point the above out.  If you have suggestions on how to portray that better, I would love to hear them.

The goal with all that was to give a fun fight between 14 year olds (8+6 = 14, and I may have missed a 12 in there that I went back to change) and give the audience a glimpse of Jin's analytical abilities.  So again, if you know how to make that better (and yes choreography changes are acceptable) I would appreciate it.

Okay, so I’ve got one more big beef with this chapter, (still on the whole six year topic, I know I’m beating my own dead horse, but whatever) and that is his lack of muscle and any sort of fighting ability. I would have thought that slaves who are trained to be gladiators, trained to fight, would, after six years of training, have at least some small ability to fight. Especially for what we are told(more often than shown) that Jin is a brilliant kid, and a lot of fighting is using your brain and strategy and technique. Yet he is portrayed as helpless when he fights Burm, and he is held in contempt by everything for his lack of fighting prowess.

Actually I appreciate this a lot.  When I was in college, I got into dancing.  And by that I mean things like Ballet and ballroom and all that stuff.  After 2 years, I was actually performing at a higher level then people who had been dancing since they were wee (like 9 years old).  Getting technique right, and performing right is about choosing to do it right.  With Jin's attempts to get people to kill him, of course he's going to purposely not learn things.  So if you have any suggestions on how to show this, I would love to hear it.

[lethalfalcon]

Okay, the first part of the chapter I'm having a lot of issues trying to figure out what's flashback regarding the time he tried to escape and what's the present day. I think it's because you intersperse a huge chunk of flashback and description between two sentences with the scourge whipping him.  I'll try to point out more of this issue in my line-level edits.

I will agree with the earlier comment that he should have learned something about how to fight after six years, or he should be dead. He definitely should not be acting like a baby after so long in the Pits. Going along with this, why does it take six years for Jalean to get pissed off enough at Jin to want to kill him? I'd expect it after a few months, maybe a year... but six? She either has a lot of patience, or Jin hasn't been trying hard enough.

Also, since it came up... Jin can apparently take a nasty gash and a shield bash to the temple and only get dizzy? Can I hit you with a bone shield in the temple and see if you're still standing afterward? A 14-year-old is, again, pretty frail, especially since you portray him as such. They do not take hits to the head and stay conscious. Also, a good slice across the back can sever tendons and render an arm useless pretty quickly... so perhaps you need to emphasize that it only grazed him. There's not a whole lot of thickness between skin and shoulder blade, or between skin and spine (and the ax could manage to get between the vertebrae, and then it's bye-bye disc). I suppose the back of your arm would be a good place to get struck, as the bone is right there, and the muscles are above and below... your back is full of muscle, though, so you might not want to get sliced there. How many hit points do normal humans have? 1-4, and a good dagger can take to unconscious in one swing.

Okay, so you want a better way to describe that he's purposely not learning? SHOW IT! If you're inside his head, make him resistant to learning. Right now, I just get the impression that he's a clumsy weakling. Honestly, though, at this point I would expect him to have given up on that sort of rebellion. In fact, if he was intelligent, he would realize that they're giving him a tool. Learning how to fight from someone means you know a lot about how they fight. So, you learn how to fight better, and you learn how to deal with your opponent when you have to (like when you escape). I'd imagine this would change Jin's character a bit too much, though, so we'll stick with the weak little boy scenario. This may mean that this chapter should come a lot earlier than six years after he got to the Pits.

Burm gave a nod to Jalean.  He picked up his axe and shield, readying them against Jin.  Jin watched him, bending his first finger around to grip the whistlers. He thought it felt better this way.

With that, you're showing defiance of Jalean's trying to teach him, and you remove some of the crybaby mentality that he has. He'd be accustomed to the pain after six years, too.

I have one other problem, and it's starting to become more apparent. I have no sense of anything happening to further the story. Where is the main plot? So far, you've introduced four main characters, four magic systems, and a trapped God who wanders around in his mind. Is this just going to be four fictional biographies? Or is there some actual point to all this? Perhaps you're trying for a character-driven story instead of a plot-driven one. I don't know. I still think that a story needs to have some sort of overreaching arc, and I'm just not seeing it anywhere. Part of this might just be that some things are out of order, and I don't have a complete idea of where each of your submissions are chronologically. At any rate, if all of these are at the beginning, we have something like 7 chapters of character/world exposition, and the only one that hints at something plot-related is the chapter of Anaiah where those hounds come in (and I'm not even sure that qualifies as big plot, or isolated event). I guess what I'm getting at is this: What is the point of your story?

[Hamster]

Underdog,

So I was about to reply with suggestions, but lethalfalcon almost literally took the words  out of my mouth:

Okay, so you want a better way to describe that he's purposely not learning? SHOW IT! If you're inside his head, make him resistant to learning. Right now, I just get the impression that he's a clumsy weakling. Honestly, though, at this point I would expect him to have given up on that sort of rebellion. In fact, if he was intelligent, he would realize that they're giving him a tool. Learning how to fight from someone means you know a lot about how they fight. So, you learn how to fight better, and you learn how to deal with your opponent when you have to (like when you escape). I'd imagine this would change Jin's character a bit too much, though, so we'll stick with the weak little boy scenario. This may mean that this chapter should come a lot earlier than six years after he got to the Pits.

I have nothing of value to add to this, it sums it up perfectly.

Plotwise, I get what lethalfalcon is saying, but personally, I'm engaged enough with the characters and small hints of plot already. It depends on what length you're going for, because after all, a lot of longer books take a while to get the plot going. But...in another chapter or two I would start to get antsy and wonder if the time I'm spending to read this is worth it. And I'm also confused chronologically, so in your next submission, could you maybe give us a rough outline of which and whose chapters would go in what order?

[Recovering_Cynic]

hmmm... most of what I'd say has already been said, but I did have some additions.  First, I have a problem with Jalean threatening Jin, or at least, with the timing of it.  If Jin is so stinking useless, why did she wait SIX YEARS to do something about it?  There is nothing to indicate that this is a recurring threat, which is what you'd expect if he is a complete tool.  Jalean doesn't strike me as the kind of person with a lot of patience, which is what it would take to put up with a weenie for that long.  On the same note, if Burm is so freaking awesome, why hasn't he been sold in six years?  Doesn't she turn a profit?

The ending:  what?  She gives him a wink?  The end of the chapter left me wondering what was happening, there isn't really and closure, nor is there a cliffhanger.  What were you aiming for?

Other than the above, I am pretty much in agreement with the rest of the comments.

[lethalfalcon]

I'd actually pointed out that very same fact that I wouldn't expect Jalean to wait six years to put Jin on the chopping block either (I don't blame you for missing it--my walls of text sometimes drone on and on and on...).

My guess is that Burm hasn't been sold because he's more useful there as a trainer/thug than in someone else's house. She's making money on him by having a good trainer. Or maybe he gives sexual favors....

[Recovering_Cynic]

probably the sexual favors.