Author Topic: Dec. 7, 2009 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 5 (rewrite)  (Read 2045 times)

Recovering_Cynic

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Dec. 7, 2009 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 5 (rewrite)
« on: December 08, 2009, 01:20:19 AM »
Enjoy.  For those of you who have read a previous version of this chapter, let me know how you feel about the changes, especially in light of the added chapters in the beginning.
this is the way the world ends,
not with a bang, but a whimper
~T.S. Eliot

LongTimeUnderdog

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Re: Dec. 7, 2009 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 5 (rewrite)
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2009, 04:18:47 AM »
Soooo, it was a fun read.  Actually a lot of fun.  I admit to scrutinizing Jagoth's technique but you were smart enough to keep that hidden (or a good enough writer to give us the visuals without a more indepth read into the combat).   It seemed an odd place to put another action type event, considering the previous chapter was all action as well.  That's not bad, actually it was refreashingly enjoyable.  But then I'm a sucker for Sword and Sorcery of the non D&D kind.  That said I did have some questions.

If he's parading as a noble, why doesn't he have his own sword?

The guards and soldiers, while you mention are wearing chainmail, and likely helmets, I have no sense of their gear.  While Jagoth is killing them all, I'm not so impressed by his abilities because his opponents don't seem like something threatening.  To put it differently, the text may say chainmail, but without actually getting a good visual of what the guards are dressed as, I can only read the slaughter as well . . . a slaughter of peasants instead of a slaughter of trained soldiers.  If they're wearing armor I want to really see it, helmet and all.  I should mention here that I'm a big sword nerd and so I may be overly demanding of fight scenes.

The other big complication I encountered was how unsympathetic the character was butchering those people, but again that's in part because I did not feel impressed with his skills due to a lack of info about his opponents.   I should mention here that Sylar in the Tv show "Heroes" does a lot of just that, and yet remains one of the most popular characters in the show.  I find the character really annoying, so go figure.

Take note however, that my feelings about the scene are because of my personal background and admittedly unrealistic expectations.  So while I may hammer that one part into the ground, it is only because it's the one thing (and only thing) I really know well.

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Re: Dec. 7, 2009 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 5 (rewrite)
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2009, 11:42:23 PM »
You seem to be going in the right direction. I have no major complaints. Jagoth is a bit easier to take in this time and I am interested in his obvious inner struggle. I have a few line edits, but that is about it.
Good work, and good luck. Keep them coming.
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Chaos

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Re: Dec. 7, 2009 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 5 (rewrite)
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2009, 01:39:44 AM »
I liked this chapter. I liked it a lot. I loved the Baltier/Jagoth internal struggle. This is what has been missing in your previous chapters, and it made this chapter fun. There's mystery regarding how Jagoth got back into the kingdom out of his exile, there's mystery as to who this Bathsin person is, and whether this has something to do with his coldness compared with the old Baltier before. He's much darker, and while part of this is certainly that he himself is a more vengeful person, I can't help but think Bathsin is influencing him greatly. Good stuff. Mystery intrigues me, and you did it while maintaining the flow. Wonderful!

There's one thing I can't help but shake from my mind. This is going to sound prescriptive, but I really think this should be your opening chapter.

Don't get me wrong, knowing some of who Baltier was before helps make this chapter good. Knowing about the hounds makes the hound venom really cool. Knowing that he is an exile is necessary for the scene and its progression. Knowing all of things did color the perception of this chapter, but still... I get the feeling this is the meat of the story right here. I'm intrigued. I know what the MC expects, I know his motivation, there's mystery, there's conflict. All of this signals to me that this is the true Chapter One. Heck if I know how you could possibly make it work as chapter one, but it feels right to me.

There's no big problems in this scene for me, merely small things that I noticed in-line:

-----

Why did he change his name? I worry about this, because name changes in chapter five might feel a bit jarring for readers. Why "Jagoth", in particular? Also, there appears to be a lot of "-thune"'s attached to the names of city.

I like this internal conflict.

I have to wonder what genre this book is going for. If it's heroic fantasy, that works, but if it's epic fantasy, you still have work ahead of you.

This should be your first chapter, I think.

I have a lot of questions coming into it, things that have been lacking in previous chapters. Like, how he got back into the Empire, out of his exile. Who is Bathsin? If Baltier is "dead" in Jagoth's opinion, why does Charles refer to him as "Lord Baltier" instead of "Lord Jagoth"?

Methinks Jagoth should have realized they'd make him take off his hat...

You start two paragraphs on page 8 both beginning with [Person snarled]. Those snarls are too close together.

Clearly, the bells seem to have some sort of mystical nature to the Knights and their summoning.

I think it'd be more reasonable to just dodge the bag of venom than to try and use the sword like a Jedi would, deflecting projectiles. :P A sword can't exactly deflect a crossbow bolt.

-----

Excellent work. I'm finally intrigued about the story right here.

EDIT: I guess I need to add to my Mystery List, "How in the hell did Baltier survive the hound bite?" I sort of forgot about that since last chapter.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 01:44:23 AM by Chaos2651 »
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Recovering_Cynic

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Re: Dec. 7, 2009 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 5 (rewrite)
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2009, 06:11:54 AM »
Actually, you bring up a good point, and one I've been considering for some time.  Any input on this idea would be appreciated from anyone.  Here goes:

I am thinking about telling a parallel story here.  What I mean is, a few chapters of Baltier, a few chapters of Jagoth, then a few chapter of Baltier...  All the time I will be foreshadowing that Baltier is Jagoth, but not too blatantly.  There will come a point in the story where the thing that has possessed Baltier will leave (Jagoth goes away) and he becomes human once more, and that would be the point where the two story lines merged (meaning, the past story about Baltier catches up to him becoming Jagoth).  I think pacing-wise the story would work well that way, the only problem is, I'm not sure my readers would forgive a non-linear story telling method like that.  I've seen it done well in other stories, e.g. Armor by John Steakly, but it is not easy, nor entirely reader friendly.

So there it is.  I won't try to do this until I have written the entire story once through linearly, then I might go back and see if I can piece it together in a crafty sort of way.  Of course, I would have to flesh out the Baltier chapters some.  Anyway, let me know what you think.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 04:05:37 PM by Recovering_Cynic »
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Chaos

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Re: Dec. 7, 2009 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 5 (rewrite)
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2009, 06:57:58 AM »
I knew he was possessed. I totally called it. ;)

It'd be very difficult to do, of course. Me, I wouldn't try it until my second or third novel, where I'd get more experimental. It could work well.

Then again, it adds an extra layer of conflict that we know Baltier is Jagoth, and the conflict between these two. It makes it fun to read. So I would hesitate losing that...
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Re: Dec. 7, 2009 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 5 (rewrite)
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2009, 08:18:10 AM »
Well if you're going to go for foreshadowing that they're the same person, you need to tone down your hints a bit, since it's possible to easily deduce from the first paragraph or so of this chapter that they are one and the same.

I was going to critique this, but then I realized that I can't even really remember what I just read (yey sleep deprivation!), so I'll give you a full critique tomorrow, which this particular chapter deserves (at least I seem to recall thinking that it did....)
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Re: Dec. 7, 2009 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 5 (rewrite)
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2009, 02:23:19 AM »
Ok, now that I can think coherently:

I did really like this chapter. It has a much more immediate sense of conflict than the previous chapters have. It also gives us a definite idea of what exactly this story is going to be about (though of course, we knew that already from what you've told us).

It reads really really easily, which is a very good thing. There wasn't much to pull me out of the story, and a whole lot to pull me in. This is also a very good thing.

I have to agree with Chaos, this would make a good chapter 1, though you would have to slip in some tidbits during the chapter, like what hound venom is, etc.

I still am wondering how exactly Baltier survived, and why it was he ever thought he would be able to get into the city and not be suspected with an exile mark still on his head.

While Reading:

The brackets for the conversations with Bathsin are really annoying. Just use italics, and they work just fine as long as you don't have Jagoth thinking to himself too much in here as well as her talking to him.

So Jagoth hires a bunch of criminals to get into the city, thinking that they'll be able to pose as noble servants, and he as a noble? That was dumb of him. Furthermore, why don't the soldiers notice anything weird with these random thugs who don't really look like noble's servants?

Jagoth comes across as really hard, and yet he's musing about how he doesn't kill women and children any longer? Why not have the Baltier alter ego think these thoughts, as they seem more appropriate? It seems a little odd to have all this stuff going on in his head, all the potential for internal conflict, and not make full use of it.

Jagoth is no longer human? I guess that makes sense with the hound thing, but still. Since we don't know how Bal survived, I'm getting this sort of zombie vibe, which I'm fairly certain is not what you're going for.

Again with the annoying formatting! Underline or italics, not both! Particularly not underlining, italics, and italics with brackets....

Totally random, but it just occured to me that if Baltier survived, is it not possible that his family might have? Apparently not, since he still wants revenge, but still...

The line about how it never hurts to flatter a soldier, calling him Captain instead of Lieutenant, is one of the most overused in fantasy, in my opinion. If you must use it, use it in a different way, since it comes across as really cliche.

You call the lieutenant a captain several times, even after everybody knows that he's only a lieutenant.

How close together are all of these soldiers? In the first description of them you gave us, it seemed like they were all really close, letting only a few people through at a time, but here (Where Jagoth kills the lieutenant, then the other soldiers start attacking) it seems like they're on opposite sides of an extremely wide street. I guess the really question is actually how wide the street is, since you've mentioned they're on opposite sides of it.

Jagoth has a holy crapload of daggers! Where is he keeping all of these things? He kills like fifteen to twenty guys, and never once retrieves a knife that we see. I'm not really seeing anybody carrying around that many knives without some of them being visible, let alone easily accessible. For him to get to them and throw them that quickly, I'd say a maximum of eight or nine knives unless we can see how he does it. Otherwise I'm assuming they're within a coat, up a sleeve, etc, and I can't really think of that many places he would have a knife.

I love where you compare Jagoth to a social butterfly at a dance. The stark contrast of the metaphor made it really effective, in my opinion.

Once Jagoth is holding the sword, I imagine he would stop thinking of it as the officer's sword. It would just be, "the sword," or maybe even, "his sword." Not that this is a big issue, and may not even be the case, but just a thought.

Again, we've seen that Jagoth is cold and hard, and Baltier is not. I don't see why you have Jagoth hesitating or feeling sad that he's killing people. I'd much rather see Jagoth be cold and hard, and the Baltier alter-ego takes some measure of control. Like Baltier couldn't bear to do the stuff he has, so he formed a completely hard alter-ego, but sometimes takes control again, you know?

When did the soldiers multiply? Didn't we start with seven, and yet we have, "eleven men died" right after he's already killed  several of the soldiers. Jagoth only has five guys to kill, and one of them didn't die (charles). That leaves us with seven soldiers, the same number (including the lieutenant) that we had before any of this started. And where exactly did the crossbowmen come from? Were they already there and I just missed it?

Why exactly did the guard try to deflect the bag with his sword? That's kind of stupid. Furthermore, why did Jagoth think that he would, since it seems like if someone threw a bag at me, I would either catch it, or if I suspected it was dangerous and get out of the way. It seems more like Jagoth would make a small cut, then carefully throw it that way so that it sprayed venom on the guy. Or he could just kill him in the conventional way....

Why doesn't Jagoth just try to blend in with the crowd, instead of posing as a noble? It seems to me that in a throng like this supposedly is, it would be easier to blend and/or sneak in than if you were pretending to be some pompous noble.

*****

Well, if you look at my comments, they're mostly fairly small line-level type stuff, so I have very few complaints. Since I caught most of my line-level stuff here, I won't bother sending them to you.

I like this scene. A lot. And thinking about it, I think I like knowing that Jagoth is Baltier. It does make it more fun to read. You could still do the parallel storylines thing, though it wouldn't have quite the tension this does.

You now quite thoroughly have my attention. I look forward with great anticipation to the next installment.
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vegetathalas

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Re: Dec. 7, 2009 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 5 (rewrite)
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2009, 01:55:00 AM »
I wouldn't do the alternating viewpoints with the big reveal. It sounds kind of gimmicky to me. But you might want to try it and see how it feels and if you come up with any new insights for your characters. Writing is never wasted.

I agree with Chaos that this feels like a beginning chapter, mostly because I hate time jumps so much. Does a year need to pass? If you start with the last chapter and then give us this one, that'd be okay too.

Yum...the head on the spit made me hungry...too close to dinnertime, I suppose. Good detail.

I agree you need to explain how he survived the bite. I presume being possessed saved him somehow. Is Baltier/Jagoth the only viewpoint character?

Where'd a poor exile get the money to hire a bunch of henchmen?

Who's Bathsin? I'm confused because she and Baltier's name start with the same two letters, so I'm wondering if she's Baltier's submerged transvestite side. Though obviously she doesn't seem to have Baltier's personality.

I wonder why all the info on the barrier/ruins if most of the action is going to take place between him the knight (who turns out to be the brother to justify the flashback? Otherwise, I wonder why it was there too). I presume you'll get back there again eventually.

"Show time" seems very modern.

Should be "bare your foreheads," unless there's a bear on their foreheads...

Nice action. Good clarity. I'd like some explanation at why Jagoth is a killing machine. Divine powers? I am confused about whether 11 men died and then six more died, or if they're part of the eleven.

How can it be almost human skin? It is or it isn't. And if it isn't, then stop playing games and tell us what it is.

I like the Charles/Jagoth relationship. I'm confused how Charles got over the wall. If the huts are outside the wall, that should be specified.

Can you snarl a grin?

Good chapter. Looking forward to seeing more.

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Re: Dec. 7, 2009 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 5 (rewrite)
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2009, 10:52:52 PM »
Okay, I'm going to start playing catch-up on critiques....

There are a lot of new "characters" introduced in this chapter, namely all the voices in his head that weren't present before (I'd guess from his little incident at the end of the last chapter). However, all these come as a bit of a shock to me as a reader. Echoing the rest of the posts, I would also recommend that you put this at the beginning. Here's why:

1) You don't have to explain how he managed to miraculously avoid death from something that really should have killed him. Being possessed does not usually save you from a perforated kidney, so I'm still a little WTF on that. :)
2) You have a lot more action with a definite goal, and I just kept on reading it, unlike a lot of the other chapters, where I was struggling with "what's the point" at times.
3) Your time jumps up 'til now have been very spastic and unpredictable. If they all became flashbacks, it would make more sense to me, especially if you were able to orient the reader to what time it was. "Baltier thought back to his release two years ago..." or somesuch.
4) You don't have a bunch of extra voices just appear out of nowhere. You instead introduce him as this odd possessed schizo right from the start, and the flashbacks end up showing you that he was "normal" at one point. You have external and internal conflict right at the beginning of the book.

Otherwise, I thought it was a pretty good chapter. I could really see the maniac running around gleefully hacking people to bits... although his exact movements from person to person were a bit shrouded, which I'm not sure matters to most people.

I have a few nitpicky things, but I'll send those to you in line-edits.

To respond to other comments: I count four daggers that he lost; one to the lieutenant, two to guardsmen on the other side of the portcullis, and one in a guard's ear. He had at least six: one in his hat, one in his sash and "He had five more tucked into the folds of his shirt behind his back." (direct sentence) Also, there were 7 guards and 4 "servants" killed in the instant, so it was right (not all of them are explained, though). In total, 10 guards were killed (the lieutenant was the eighth, and the two guards on the other side of the portcullis were 9 and 10). I'm kinda picky about head counts, so I might have picked up on it a bit from my OCD. :P
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Re: Dec. 7, 2009 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 5 (rewrite)
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2009, 08:14:34 AM »
I'm assuming Jagoth's pallid skin is a result of whatever happened to him after the hound's attack. Otherwise, living on the frontier, one would think that he'd gotten himself a nice tan.

I'm confused as to what happened at the end. Did Jagoth actually enter the city? because it seemed like he did, but I wondered how he'd gotten over the wall. And then, just to confuse things further for me, he thought about needing to get over the wall.

Other than that one complaint, I don't have much. It read well, and unless I'm forgetting something it seems like we make a little more forward motion here than in the original draft of this chapter, which is good.

I think we're at a point where we really need to start seeing hints of the main Plot come at us and I hope you take advantage of Jagoth's no-longer-isolated position in the city to do so. I wonder if chapter five might even a bit late for that, but I think that's as much with a problem with your earlier chapters as this on and nothing you don't know.

Some responses to what others have said: I also wondered why he didn't have a sword, as it seems to me like nobles would, even if those swords were just showpieces. Perhaps nobles just don't carry swords for some reason? That was the assumption I made, anyway.

I agree that while it's fun to watch Jagoth run around beating the crap out of these guys, other than the fun of "whee, action" there's not really a whole lot of tension in terms of the fight. I don't mean that it's boring; it's fun to watch, and the internal conflict makes up for the lack of tension in the fight itself, but if you want us to be holding our breaths waiting for the outcome of the fight, we're not. There's obviously not even a contest here. As LTU points out, he might as well be slaughtering peasants as trained soldiers.

It does seem kind of unrealistic, but given how little we know about Jagoth (as opposed to Baltier) and what happened to him after the hounds got him, I'm willing to let that slide. For now, of course; I expect an explanation in the fullness of time. :P

("In the fullness of time"? That sounds ... ridiculous, actually. I think I need to stop doing these soon.)

Okay. Regarding the non-linear story thing that you've suggested here. The artist in me goes, "Oh, squee, nonlinear story telling, cool!" I love non-linear story telling. In fact, I'm really glad you brought this up, because I've been reading your chapters and I've been wanting to suggest that you do something like this. To be honest, I've been biting my tongue on this one since chapter two.

Why have I been biting my tongue? Well...

As much as I love non-linear storytelling, and I'm guilty of doing some of it myself (I wrote a novelette about two years ago which, while totally different than this, used an almost identical technique), I think your readers will more easily forgive you if you have some purpose behind the two different timelines than just the cool factor. I would personally be willing to forgive you on that basis alone, but I think that I'm a minority there. So when I suggest that you have a purpose other than just the cool factor, bear with me while I try to explain using an example that you totally haven't read (because I can't think of any stories written by someone you might actually have read right now): In the case of my novelette, the non-linear technique was used to help drive home a thematic point. (Vague enough for you? Actually, let me know if that's too vague, because I want this to make sense.)

So I think that it's okay to screw with reader's expectations a bit, as long as you know that it WILL turn some people off, who probably would have otherwise read your story. Personally, as I've already said, I would be thrilled to read a story that did that; I love that kind of thing. Again, though, I think I'm a minority in this.

So I think that it's best to be able to give your readers some kind of extra payoff for that, if you can. I don't want to stress this too much because I think it can be important, but I don't think is necessary. (What is necessary is that you make sure you aren't doing this to your readers JUST to screw with them. If all it adds is your ability to better explore your characters and not some kind of extra payoff, I think that's enough. But it had better be a better story than it would have been if you had told it linearly.)

And yes, it is hard. It's probably one of the more difficult things you'll do. I still don't know if my novelette has the balance exactly right. (For the record, I think it's mighty close. But that's neither here nor there.) So it's not easy. You'll run into foreshadowing difficulties, definitely. It's a balance that is very difficult to achieve. But it IS achievable.

Another danger that you'll find that is peculiar to your story: You'll have your readers wondering just what the heck Jagoth and Baltier have to do with each other. This problem may be be smaller than I think it is, simply because we haven't seen that much of Jagoth yet, and as Chaos has said, that does seem to be the main meat of the story. But you'll want to somehow tie them together (certainly by the end of the beginning of the story, if that makes any sense, and probably sooner than that) in ways that go beyond just "psst, these guys are actually the same person! have you noticed yet?" This will be difficult for you particularly because of the isolation enforced on Baltier by the frontiers and the narrowness of your scope (at least so far) but I suspect you can get around that if you try.

Oh, speaking of scope. So far, Baltier/Jagoth has been our only POV. If you're planning on adding others, that could make things very difficult for you. (That's my first thought, anyway, is that it would make things more difficult for you. Then again, I've never tried this with more than two POVs--who knows? It could potentially make things easier.)

One thing I DON'T think you have to worry about is losing the internal conflict of Jagoth/Baltier. You can't name the human part of Baltier Baltier, obviously. But even if you just refer to it as the human part or his old self or whatever you can still keep the core of that conflict. It will change things, obviously, not knowing that Baltier and Jagoth are the same. But I don't think it will make things less interesting.

The other thing that might be difficult to conceal in that case would be Baltier's exile mark; it's distinctive and might be problematic. On the other hand, the different timelines (that your readers won't know about) and the name change will be enough to throw people for a loop, so perhaps it will be less obvious than it might seem. If you play your cards right, you could get people thinking that Jagoth's actions as a fugitive are going to have some effect on Baltier and family waiting at home (while still preparing them for the reveal later). That's just an example; I don't know the shape of your story, obviously, so I hope you won't take suggestions like this too seriously. (Uh, unless they work. Then, by all means, take them as seriously as you'd like.) But I hope you can use them as a springboard for where you'd really like to go.

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh!  If you could lead us to think that the story was gearing up for some sort of confrontation between Jagoth and Baltier, and then do your reaveal... that might be reasonably awesome.

I think your biggest problem if you went this route would be deciding where to place your reveal. It seems like a climactic kind of thing. In which case it should go at, uhh, the climax. Which means that you would have to draw out Baltier's story rather more than you have, and while I certianly think you can draw it out more (more on that in a sec) I don't know if you can draw it out to match Jagoth's story. It's hard to gauge, though, since Jagoth's story is just beginning. If you DON'T want to place this at the climax, then you had just better make sure that your actual climax has something even more awesome to offer. :P

All that being said, I think there are a couple of obvious advantages that you would get from doing your story in this non-linear fashion:

a) You'll get the time you need to develop Baltier, Mariana and Marshall as a family. If you're going to spend as much time as you already have on them, then I think you need to do a little more. (We've already talked about the time jumps in the previous chapters and you could smooth that out here.) You'll have to justify that with their own internal and external conflicts, of course, and the external conflicts should be linked to what Jagoth is doing/the main story somehow.

b) You'll get more time to develop Baltier before he's sent off to the frontier. What happened with him and Jake, yes (which should probably go at the beginning of the story, if you do it this way; don't mess around with your readers too much) and particularly happened at Jaksune, after he was captured and before he was sent to the frontier. I really do get the sense that something significant happened to Baltier between his capture and his exile (I could be wrong, of course) and would like to see it.

c) As long as you're careful to make Baltier's story have interesting in/external conflicts and you're careful not to let Jagoth out-bada--ahem, out-badboy Baltier (well, even if you do let him, which you shouldn't) you'll be able to spend some time on Baltier's development and get the faster-paced Jagoth segments at the same time. If you do it right, we won't begrudge you if you have your cake and eat it too; after all, that's what cake is for (thanks Howard).

d) It will be totally awesome if you pull it off.

All of that is the long way (sorry) of saying that it isn't easy to do, but that I think you should give this option some serious consideration. Whether you do or don't will depend a lot on how well you can make it fit with the rest of your story, and how much all that stuff that comes before Jagoth really matters. If all that stuff is only there to make Jagoth seem like less of a jerk, then there's no real reason that it can't go in flashbacks (though that will make Jagoth a less-than-sympathetic character at the start, and the flashbacks may not change that for people who are determined to hate him, even if they understand him a little better. That isn't necessarily a negative effect, but it is a significant one).

I also wonder how Baltier survived. At the moment, hey, it's magic. Cool by me. I assume that this has something to do with Bathsin, which has something to do with the hounds. I also assume that you'll explain that this later. See that you don't disappoint me. *shakes finger*

Hmm... it did occur to me to wonder, briefly, if his family might have survived in the same way he did, but we saw their corpses, so it wasn't much more than a fleeting thought. It DOES make me wonder why they chose Baltier, particularly, to possess/reincarnate. Something else you can explain later. (Incidentally, Chaos, I should sure hope you guessed that, since I don't see how anyone could have missed it.)

Didn't really have a problem with flattering the lieutenant/captain thing. Though after the lieutenant made a point of correcting him, it would be kind of silly for Jagoth to keep calling him Captain.

I would like to adopt Andrew's "holy crapload" as an official unit of measurement. That is all.

 As to why Jagoth tried to blend in with the crowd: I assumed one of a couple of things; that he was hoping the nobles would get less flack at the gates, and/or that he wanted to sneak a bunch of dudes in with him. Though the latter doesn't hold up so well now that I think about it, since he could just have them all join the line and pretend that he didn't know them.

...

I, uh...

Yeah. I think I'm going to stop talking now. Sorry. I'm just going to slink away from the computer and disappear...

Recovering_Cynic

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Re: Dec. 7, 2009 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 5 (rewrite)
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2009, 05:27:17 PM »
Thank you for all the feedback Silk!  I have decided that this particular story is too problematic for now; I will be leaving it be and moving on.  Once I've done something simpler, I might come back and finish it, but for now, this story needs a master's touch, and I'm still somewhere around journeyman level (with a novice being those poor saps who are failing at writing at short stories--no offense intended to anyone reading this who happens to be failing at short stories).

Anyway, I like the idea of the nonlinear version, but you are very right that it will be quite difficult to pull off considering the plot of this particular book.  It is, after all, a revenge plot, so the climax is supposed to be the vengence.  I had previously had the reveal planned at about halfway through the book, which probably wouldn't work so well.  Anyway, I'll dust this thing off somewhere down the road.  I love it too much to abandon it completely, but I need to deal with something else for awhile.
this is the way the world ends,
not with a bang, but a whimper
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Re: Dec. 7, 2009 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 5 (rewrite)
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2009, 08:59:58 PM »
A lot of people who write successful novels still fail at writing short stories, you know. I think you need seperate rankings for those :P

Good luck on whatever you decide to do next. I had another thought for this one, which is that the three-act format might be helpful for you here. You might also be able to place a Baltier/Jagoth reveal at the end of the first act (not that you necessarily have to split your book into acts, obviously), and then move ahead with the rest of the story. It'd mean you wouldn't have to draw as much out of the Baltier storyline and it would probably make introducing other POVs a heck of a lot easier.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing whatever you come up with in the interim, but if I didn't write that down while I was thinking about it, I would have forgotten to do so :P

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Re: Dec. 7, 2009 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 5 (rewrite)
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2009, 10:10:10 PM »
Quote
Oh, speaking of scope. So far, Baltier/Jagoth has been our only POV. If you're planning on adding others, that could make things very difficult for you. (That's my first thought, anyway, is that it would make things more difficult for you. Then again, I've never tried this with more than two POVs--who knows? It could potentially make things easier.)

Multiple POVs, all jumping around in time? No, it definitely makes things more difficult. Heck, having multiple POVs by itself is a difficult thing to pull off. One has to have the stories weave together and have it come to a cohesive climax... it's hard.

The first example of non-linear storytelling that comes to my mind is Schlock Mercenary Book 8 (because I just read it). By couching the non-linearness with a single character jumping around in time (Kevyn), we are grounded. It really does help the readers orienting themselves in the piece, so there's that to think about.

I can actually see this story working well non-linearly. By giving more time to Baltier's storyline, you can explore the mysteries of Constructs, hounds, and wards. Well, maybe not hounds, as you clearly are going to explore that later in the tale ;)
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