December 7 - LongTimeUnderdog - The Name of God Jin'Cathul 1:1

[LongTimeUnderdog]

Sooooo . . . . it's an attempt to make fixes to a bad idea, I've decided to rewrite Jin's intro.  It's been the most troublesome of all the character intros.  So here it is.  Have fun.

[Recovering_Cynic]

I really liked this chapter.

There.

Done.

*sigh*  If only.  I really liked the relationship between Jin and his dad.  It was convincing and realistic.  I really don't have too much to complain about, although there is one thing that puzzled me greatly.  If men with power/smarts is blasphemy, then why is Jin's father tolerated at all?  Is this more of a "guideline" than a rule?  Is there a trend toward letting up on the men?  Do they not enforce their rules on foreigners?  I guess what I am really wondering is, how hard of a tenant is this religious belief that men should be inferior?  Are people willing to kill for it?   Or is it more like our society where there are (or at least were) certain expectations of what gender roles should be.  In this chapter, it seemed like a mix of both.  It seemed really serious, but then, not really.

Anyway, that was my one and only critique (for the moment).  I may come up with more later, so no guarantees

[LongTimeUnderdog]

You can't only have one critique . . . you're like . . .my guiding light.  That's not fair.  How will I ever go on living?

[Recovering_Cynic]

Oh I'm sure I'll think of something else.  I'll be your *blinking* guiding light.

[Andrew the Great]

I also really liked the relationship between Jin and his father. However, I did have some gripes with Jin. You can't charactarize him as a super-intelligent little kid, then have him not know the word confused. My six year old brother of fairly average intelligence knows that word. I understand that it's an attempt to make Jin more childlike, but you can't do it this way. I think the use of 'daddy' was very effective for that.

The first half of this was really choppy. It was kind of difficult to read at times, though it was interesting. It also started to get fairly infodumpy about the religion and such. It's not a bad place to do it, but try to be a little more subtle about it. Show, don't tell. Instead of having the characters talk about it in the form of "lessons," why don't you have Jin, an observant little boy, notice some things? If he can't get them on his own, he could always ask questions. All of this makes it less infodumpy and more interesting.

You told us what Jin and his father were wearing at least three or four different times. I really didn't care that much after the first. It's interesting to see what they're wearing, as it adds to culture and our understanding of the characters, but after we were describing their clothing for the fifth time, I was going, "I don't care what they're wearing anymore!"

Also, I found myself wondering, "How many times have these characters changed outfits?" Now granted, they probably didn't ever actually suddenly gain new clothing, or anything like that, but my first thought was that if they had been wearing these clothes when you first described what they were wearing, you would have described them then. It led to me thinking they had changed clothes somehow.

The second half, where it starts to get into a lot more dialog, is much better written. It flows fairly well, and was much easier to read. However, once we get to this point, I found that there was very little actually keeping me reading. The conflict at the end with the sparks and the pain they cause Jin was very good, as were some of the interpersonal conflicts there, but in the middle of the scene, it was long and boring, and I really couldn't see why we needed the scene at all. We didn't learn anything critical in their conversation with their guide, and it started to get interesting again as soon as she left. I'd say you could cut or trim a large portion of this middle scene and be just fine.

The research, while it may be important, is really not that interesting yet. We don't understand enough about the world for it to be. It would be decidedly less confusing if we weren't throwing around so many jargon-ish terms, though granted you covered a few of them in the prologue. I do like the jargon, but I don't know if you can go into it in chapter 1. That, and there isn't any real clear goal for the research. It's just a vague idea in our heads - "research."

I do like that we finally get some more insight into the gender relationships, though I probably do still have as many questions as ever.

Overall, it was a fairly good submission. Just a little tweaking, and it will be great. I would definitely keep reading, once getting to the last few pages of this chapter.

Line edits are in your inbox.

[vegetathalas]

"Thin limbs and a narrow face made up this eight year old boy." -- this sentence strikes me as quite strange. As does the reference to "as strong as younger boys", since usually seven year olds are less strong than nine year olds. Unless you're saying that Jin is weak, in which case, I'd rephrase to make that clearer using "Even though..." What kind of blue hat? Yes, I know I said I wasn't interested in clothing description in the last entry and I just contradicted myself. Shut up and leave me alone.

I don't think you can flush without blushing. I think they're synonyms. And you can blush in the cold, as I've learned when my ex-boyfriend tackled me in the snow...

I was surprised by Talven's name after he'd been "father" for so long.

"That's not what I meant either,” -- what is this in reference to? The scriptorial stories? I'm surprised Tolven can get away with such arrogance given the other Jin scene I read.

"Says you" -- too modern.

I don't know if you can paint a mosaic. I thought they had to be stone. I liked the snake-man paintings.

The lesson break seems a little contrived.

Really? Brushing his hair twice a day makes Jin a fashion expert?

The dialogue goes on a long time. I would like to see the stakes in this scene. There's not much tension until the end, since the priestesses seem friendly despite the male incursion into their temple.

I agree, my four year old cousin uses the word "confused." If Jin can read and write, he's probably fine with confused.

Speaking of which, I'm confused about the Shroud. What is it?

I like the religion in your world.

I don't know how the arcs and his research relates to Talvin's masculine freedom movement. How'd Jin get born if his father refuses to sleep with anyone?

I like calling the person "Man." Though you lose the capitalization some places.

“Apparently I'm a tul.”
   Orlisa laughed.  “Yes,  hum a buk.” --I'm confused. A lot of terminology in this scene just aren't well explained.

"Your pout is adorable" -- dear god, no! I hate the condescension in this phrase.

Why is Orlisa winking at Jin?

Would matriarchal priestesses really agree to leave two free males alone in their temple? They might get dirt on their precious furniture or something. Orlisa overall didn't seem overbearing enough. Her dialogue generally seemed submissive to me, especially when she let Talven interrupt her and explained herself too much. Showed too much interest in Talven and Jin in general since she views men as animals. Why would she care about how smart Jin is and putting them at ease? Why would she flirt?

My main problem with the female slave-holders is they seem like straw women who are only making statements so the male characters can prove how liberated they are. They don't seem to have personalities or beliefs themselves. No fervor. No passion.

I think the reference to Jin's mother should come earlier or should be dropped out. It's kind of a bombshell since I was assuming Talven was a single dad, politically gay like the political lesbians of the sixties.

"soley purple?"

Good hook at the scene's end.

I think there's a lot of deadwood that can be chopped out. I'd chop it down to them entering the temple and the experiment and cut 75% of the dialogue that's not relevant.

[LongTimeUnderdog]

I like the religion in your world.

What about it is so interesting?

I don't know how the arcs and his research relates to Talvin's masculine freedom movement. How'd Jin get born if his father refuses to sleep with anyone?

What gave you the impression he was part of some male liberation movement?  I need to fix whatever gave you that idea.

"That's not what I meant either,” -- what is this in reference to? The scriptorial stories? I'm surprised Tolven can get away with such arrogance given the other Jin scene I read.

It has become painfully obvious to me that I should have submitted all of these chapters in the order they're suppose to be in.  But then until recently I wasn't sure how I wanted to arrange them.  If I had started at the begining you would have had previous chapters that explain some of these concepts and issues.

Talven is a big deal because he's A) able to read and B) has a name.  In part I tried to convey this by the slaves being called "Man," and Talven being .. . well . . . Talven.  Talven works as a research scientist (or it's world equivalent) and that means he's important.  I had hoped that by mentioning that he doesn't actually own property it would be subtly noticeable that he was still second class (or third as I call him).  The Shroud is part of their religion.   Again, an attempted demonstration (unsuccessful obviously) by noting that Lyrisism, which the women of the temple use, is powered in part by the Shroud.  So having their prayer room not have any Shroud in it, would scare them.  So they're being nice because he's the only person around with any qualifications to investigate the cause.

And this isn't the first time I'm having this problem.  I keep getting told to show and not tell, but every time I show (as above) I get told it's confusing.  So when I tell a little bit to counter that, I get told to show more and not tell. So if anyone has any suggestions on how to solve this problem, please speak up?

[vegetathalas]

Yeah, I know. It's hard and contradictory to find just the right amount of info-dumping.

By religion I might mean magic system, and I might like my interpretation of it rather than what you're thinking of. I like the idea of metal being able to read identity and displaying it with musical notes. I like the idea of Lyricists and sacred hymns only composed by women. I like the matriarchy, I just would like to see it deepened and made to feel more "real" (by which I do not mean less tyrannical--I mean more tyrannical and less about powerful women giggling all the time) I like the myth stories I'm seeing on the walls of the temple. I like the idea of arcs.

Speaking of musical notes, I forgot to mention: How did Talven know what he was when he held the knife if he had never heard a knife make that sound before? If no one had since the knives were lost? And yet Talven knew he was a Nuk or whatever right off, without any study or thought.

Of course, what it comes down to is not necessarily liking the religion itself, but liking the conflict between religion and science and magic and the hints of schisms--one woman says the men shouldn't be allowed in but the high priestess allows it. I like the potential conflicts. I like the sacred book that must be protected at all costs.

“I've read your notes,” Orlisa said.  “Aside from the sheer blasphemy of it all, it seems as if you men are just trying to embarrass the women.”
   “Not at all,” Talven said.  “Though admittedly I have been known to speak about being at allowed at least to own my own land.  The land I've been living on since I was Jin'Cathul's age.”

I don't think any priestess worth her salt would dismiss blasphemy so easily, by the way. That seems pretty blase.

I go to political writer/speaker because why would Talven state his political beliefs otherwise? Why does he go to landownership instead of saying "disproving a hypothesis has nothing to do with men or women?" To me, by admitting he's made speeches of a political nature, he's tacitly admitting his research could be used to support political causes. Or he's so used to making speeches, he's making one now even when it doesn't seem to have anything do with the subject.

Basically, he's been speechifying since he walked into the temple. Most people in a repressive society who aren't political don't argue/correct the people in power. They duck their heads and try to let be. Talven's been speaking like a political reformer ever since his first interaction with the priestesses. The way I understand your world, the very existence of an intelligent men is bound to cause controversy, and his peers' reaction would force him to one extreme or the other--weak-spined sheep trying to prove he won't rock the boat or alpha dog champion of disenfranchised men.

It's possible this society is not very repressive and free speech is encouraged, but that doesn't seem to coincide with women walking around calling people "Man." It feels very schitzophrenic, and I think you need to fall to one side or the other. Or you already are on one side or another and you need to convince me that the society is where it is.

I get he's an important researcher from the text. What I don't get is that he's important enough for the priestesses to cater to his every whim. The dead zone's been there for centuries. Why worry about it now? Why not have a female study his notes and assume that she knows more about it than he does?  I mean, getting a woman to admit a man could be a foremost researcher has got to be a struggle. Not to mention how he managed to get into research in the first place since he was disenfranchised. I'm surprised some woman hasn't taken his stylus away and said "stop worrying your pretty little head about things beyond your comprehension."

But a lot of this is because I have the later chapters. I don't know what I would think if my head was a clean slate.

[Silk]

I had originally commented that I was a bit suprrised to see that Jin's father didn't seem particularly taken aback to see his son scratching at his hands until they bled and crying from the pain. Then I realized that he did seem concerned, but even though your prose there suggests that he reacted right away, the fact that Talven's reaction comes a couple of paragraphs after makes it seem less immediate than I think you were going for.

I was also surprised that Talven ordered Jin to start over again, despite his apparent concern for Jin (who, we must remember, is very young). I don't want to just say that this is unbelievable or erroneous characterization, because it isn't necessarily so. However, I'm not quite sure what to do with it. And the reason I'm not sure what to do with it has o do with my largest critique for this chapter:

I have no idea what the stakes are. I get that this is somehow dealing with religion and that that's important, but while that suggests some interesting conflicts that might happen down the road, between the scientests and the religious folks if nothing else,  those conflicts aren't clearly explicated here. We don't know what the scope of this conflict might be, for one thing; whether the scientests and religious folks are just getting into academic spats or whether this might incite people to violence. (As corollary to that, we have no idea how this dispute is regarded by the people of your world at large, or IF it's regarded. For all we know this is an academic dispute only and not even a blip on the common man's radar.) Furthermore and maybe more importantly, aside from the potential conflict between the sciences and religions, I don't know what the immediate consequences of all this are. Other than potential crises of faith or whatnot, how does this affect the world around Jin and Talven? does it affect the world around them?

This is why I'm not sure how to characterize Talven right now, as I mentioned above. I can believe that he's willing to make his eight-year-old son do something obviously painful and potentially dangerous, I suppose, but it should tell me something definite about Talven. Right now, I don't know if he's doing this simply because he's a man of science who is devoted to his research before all else, or if there is some consequence to this research that will have definite effects on the world. I don't know this, and so I don't know how to correctly characterize Talven.

This also means that this chapter is not as interesting as it could be, because again, I don't know the stakes. Other than the fact that this is apparently an interesting research question, I don't know where the conflict lies or why any of this is important. You do explain some things, but you raise far more questions than you answer, and because the answers and the questions are both so narrow--nearly all about the magic system and not much else--I don't really feel that these are adequate hooks. It just feels like you're explaining some parts of a magic system to me, but I don't really know why it matters, and with the exception of Jin kicking the dagger at the very end (which was admittedly cool), all I've seen it do is make sparks. Also, once again I think you can trim this down a fair bit when you go to revise; this scene drags on a little long for what it does.

I certainly don't think this chapter is as hopeless as I've probably just made it sound; all I mean is that in order for this chapter to work, I think that we need to know more about the stakes than we do know. I assume that because we've spent so much time here that there WILL be consequences (other than Jin whatever happens when Jin  kicks the knife; I think we need to see consequences to all the study that went before that) so we need to know, or at least have hints of, what those consequences are. And if nothing else, I think it will really help with the characterization of Jin's father, because at the moment I'm not too sure what to do with him.

Responses to what others have said...

I was also a little puzzled as to why they let Jin's father running free since free men are apparently so uncommon. I can wait for this to be explained though, particularly since I think my opinion in this has been coloured by the treatment of men in the earlier chapters. This may mean that the extremity of the later chapters may come as a bit of a shock to your readers, though. We see the guide's treatment of the slaves, but they barely appear, and in the relationship between the guide and Jin's father there's absolutely no indication of the extreme sort of relationships we see in the chapters you've already shown us of Jin. However esteemed Jin's father is, if their views of men are that ubiquitous, some of it will bleed through in Orlisa's treatment of even anomolous men like Jin and his father. It doesn't here.

I was thrown off by him not knowing the word "confused" too. I think most eight-year-olds would know that. Unless it's a language issue? Given what we;ve seen of your earlier materials, that would be possible, but if so it's not at all clear here.

I don't think you can paint a mosaic either, but I was under the impression that they were typically glass.

I have no idea what the Shroud is either. I wasn't going to comment on it because I figure that's one of the things I could wait for, but depending on what it is and its importance to your story, telling us a bit about it may be an opportunity to help clarify the stakes.

I'd also assumed that Talven was a single dad, but since there was nothing in the text about a mother before that, I didn't find it a huge stumbling block. Surprising but not necessarily a problem.

You were asking about showing vs telling here and I don't think your problem is that showing somehow automatically makes things more confusing. I just think that in chapters like this the scope is too narrow to effectively show us what's going on. Remember also that you don't need to give us all the answers right away. It's okay if we leave your chapters with some questions, or are not quite clear on some things, as long as we get answers later.

I was also a bit surprised when Talven started in on his political beliefs. It seemed out of place. I almost wasn't going to comment at first since he obviously believes strongly in this (as well he should) and since he's obviously outspoken. But since others have commented on it I'll add my agreement to the pot. And I think I've figured out why it seems out-of-place here: aside from being more dialogue in a chapter that already has a lot of dialgoue, I think it was surprising because Talven is otherwise so focused. He's here for the science and the learning and not to go on a political rant, or so it seems to me.

So, um, this critique kind of went all over the place. Hopefully it makes some kind of sense.

[LongTimeUnderdog]

This also means that this chapter is not as interesting as it could be, because again, I don't know the stakes. Other than the fact that this is apparently an interesting research question, I don't know where the conflict lies or why any of this is important. You do explain some things, but you raise far more questions than you answer, and because the answers and the questions are both so narrow--nearly all about the magic system and not much else

Which magic  system?  I've introduced four.  But I assume you're talking about Lyrisim as that's what I spoke most about in this chapter?

[Silk]

Yes, Lyrism. That's the one you spen the most time on.

[lethalfalcon]

And I'm still wandering around playing catch-up. Yay.

I'm going to come right out and say it: the beginning of the chapter was *very* hard for me to get through. There were a lot of descriptions thrown in that made it very awkward and overly wordy. Sure, it gave me a good picture, but it's like info-dumping your environment. I'd prefer to be shown, not told what Jin looks like (this is much more difficult, as you don't normally stare at yourself or care much).

Unfortunately this info-dumping doesn't extend into what's actually going on, so I'm left with a lot of questions on why things are the way they are. I understand that Talven is there to investigate the hole, but a lot of the specifics seem shrouded (haha, spiffy pun on your writing).

At any rate, the actual "doing things" isn't too bad. If only I knew why (as Silk mentioned, the stakes). So, that's the last 5 pages that are pretty decent.  I'm guessing that the other 12 are designed to do the following things:

• Show that they church doesn't like men with independence, and also that they are apprehensive about his research, since it's effectively blasphemy
• Show how men are subservient
• Give you an idea of what Jin's little world is like right now
• Show how Jin and Talven react around women, and specifically those that don't necessarily believe men should have any sort of power/freedom

I do get a pretty good indication of the kind of person Jin and Talven are, through the dialog. I do feel that Jin flip-flops a little bit between being intelligent and dumb (which has already been brought up before).  So I would also agree that a lot of it could be hacked out.  Now for more specifics:

Mosaics are tiled (specifically, the pieces are called tesserae). They are stone, glass, wood, etc. They are not painted. A type of painting that somewhat resembles a mosaic is called Pointillism, but I doubt that's what you're looking for. Murals are similar to mosaics in result, which is probably what you're thinking of.

Jin says he's never seen metal before. Seriously? None? No hinges on doors, no metal woodworking tools, nothing? What are the rims of their spectacles made of, then? If you're going to remove all metal from a society, I need to see what they use in place of it. It's unique, so use that to your advantage.

I have a bit of a problem with Talven's outlook on things. If I were to tell him the sky were blue, I feel like he would disagree with me until he could prove *why* the sky was blue. Nevermind the fact that he could just look up and confirm it. Now, I know some people who are like this, but in all honesty, if you're ignoring evidence just because you don't like what it's called or because you can't find out every bit of information on it, then that's pretty... well, stupid. Which is ironic, given that he's supposedly a well-educated scientist. I'm not sure if this is what you're going for (I get this impression a lot when he's talking about how Lyrisism is/isn't a science).

The whole bit about his land seems a little... overmuch. I don't see why he's arguing with Orlisa about it. Does she *really* know all about his land situation? It seems a little odd, especially bringing it up at this point.

I *do* enjoy the very end, when he kicks the dagger. That's a very good hook that makes me want to find out what happened, and perhaps, more importantly, *why* it happened. You'd better deliver.

So, get out your machete.

[LongTimeUnderdog]

I *do* enjoy the very end, when he kicks the dagger. That's a very good hook that makes me want to find out what happened, and perhaps, more importantly, *why* it happened. You'd better deliver.

I think it's somewhere along chapter . . . . 20 or so . . . when I answer that.  Think that's too late?

[lethalfalcon]

For the "why", perhaps not. Jin may not know why for a long time, so I wouldn't be so annoyed by that. The "what" though... definitely. I don't want to see "Jin almost dies as demons poke at him" followed by "Jin helped his dad make dinner". I'll wonder very quickly what the whole point was of you dumping this whole scene with arcs and Lyrasism on me, without resolving it at all. That'd be more likely to make me shelve the book than continue reading to find out, because it feels too important for it to just be swept under the rug.

This isn't to say that you need to tell me everything, but if it changes Jin, or damages him in some lasting way, that needs to be revealed pretty quick. Not 19 chapters later with "Oh, by the way, Jin now has an immense fear of metal and won't ever touch Lyrasism again because he was scarred for life, kthxbai." I'd think the subject would come up a little before then.