Dec7 -- Godsplay -- Chapter One -- Vegetathalas

[vegetathalas]

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Post Chapter 1 comments here. Go wild!

[WARNING: This chapter is rated 'G' for Extreme Girly-ness.]

[LongTimeUnderdog]

The first thing  really noticed ab out this piece was that there are no descriptions of what anyone is wearing.  I assume Mel, for example, is wearing . . . something.  I mean, in my story I'm specifically say that people aren't wearing clothes all the time because otherwise people assume they are.   As far as the visualization of the whole piece,  could only assume that, if there were a camera, we would only be looking at Rachell the whole time.
  but since we're dealing with petticoats and breeches I was starting to form a more interesting image of the world/setting, but  I suppose I really would just like to know better, what people look like.

I hate that name, elvs.  Makes me think of elves and unless you're writing Shanarra I'm fairly certain I can get away with saying the name annoyed me enough.  Which is sad really, considering the awesome writing done in the entire piece.  The Elvs fell into the same confusion as Mel did.  Rachell describes them as animal and predatory and rippling muscles.  Okay that's cool but it still gives me the impression they're naked.  If they are, yay me.  What makes me question that, though, is that they say they just got back from fighting.

You mentioned that there are elvs with shapeshifting powers.  And while I'm certainly okay with that, I do start to wonder exactly to what extent they can shapeshift.  Are they really amorphic and just take whatever form they want?  If so, then why are they parading as something so exotic, with sexy muscle tones?  Can they just reshape themselves by growing blades and the like?  If not, why are they not carrying any weapons at all or baldrics/belts to hold them?  Or are we talking "Rawrrr, I'm a bear!"

My point is that while the world is rich, the mud is sticky, the sun is rising, and the elvs are slaughtering imperial nerds in the bushes,  all the characters seem to appear as paper dolls, waiting for someone to come along and hand them a pair of pants.

The warning for girliness was an appropriate one, though thinking back on the piece (but missed during the reading) why is she out flirting with some miller's son when there are Imperial patrols and pitched battles close by?

Is that nitpicky enough for you?  I mean really, if my biggest complaint is "I can't see how character x and y are dress," then you should be really proud of yourself.  Seriously, it's an entertaining story, even to a guy like me who absolutely hates chick flicks.  The elvs did throw me off but that's a name thing.  I like the extra jointed fingers, that was cool. 

[Chaos]

There's a fair progression from a gasp of fresh air from the darkness of the prologue to something light, then we get back to more darkness. That's handled well on a thematic level, though the characters' interactions feel a little off.

During-reading notes!

The opening is cool. As in the last chapter, the "narrator" makes it feel like a much more sweeping story, and at the same time, sad.

Your use of "she thought" to offset indirect quotations instead of direct thought-quotes in the same paragraph feels like an odd choice.

“You’re the ugliest boy alive,” she said. “I wouldn’t kiss you if you were the last boy in the swamp.”

From her thoughts, this makes perfect sense, but Mel isn't really giving her a cue for her to say that. At most, I know that he's playful towards her, but nothing that implies that Mel wants to kiss her. If I were Mel, I'd probably react strangely, because that line came from nowheresville.

So Lomari are genetically compatible with humans?

The slavers (the Lomari) become the enslaved. The reversal is interesting, and I hope to see it capitalized upon fully.

In the prologue, I got the feeling that Cien's sister acted much more mature than her age implied, which may have implied a far different lifespan for Lomari compared to humans. Though apparently, there isn't. I have to wonder, if humans and Lomari are so similar, did they come from a common background?

All your characters feel a lot older than they are, I think.

I agree you cannot name them "Elvs". If they are elves, call them elves. If they aren't, something different. Her description of the shapeshifter is really cool, however, and feels interesting.

It would have been easier if Baeratia wasn’t so tall. The Elv was small for her race,

Does height even matter to a shapeshifter?

Ick, infodump alert. We don't want or need the history of the Lomari and Elv relations to understand the scene. Once the Elv mentioned the Falcon Emperor, I figured they were allied. The animosity implies that cultural relations aren't "perfect", per se. Cut that paragraph with extreme prejudice.

You throw around a lot of words we don't understand, and we can't relate to. This worries me.

Your dialogue also feels fairly unrealistic. Lines like "The Twilight People will never Lomari lapdogs" feel so cliched, and I'm pretty sure that line is redundant given the conflict they both know about. However, other dialogue seems perfectly fine. I think you are working too hard to introduce us to these new races, at the expense of the dialogue. No need. Don't worry about it. What's important are the characters and their reactions. We don't need to know the history to understand that much.

----

LTU's point about her frolicking around while there is serious stuff going on is a valid one. I think adding an element of her thoughts about "why am I doing this when things are so dangerous" could add another dimension to her character. Again, Rachell (Is it pronounced with a hard "ch" like Rachel or a soft one, more like Michelle?) feels slightly flat. Family conflict, identity conflict. It's not deepened fully yet, which is okay, I suppose, for Chapter One. The conflicts that are there, however, are executed well. There is definitely something to be said for doing something and executing it really well, which you succeed in doing.

The narrative value of adding those thoughts into Rachell is that it foreshadows the end of the scene more effectively. Right now there's frolicking, and the greater conflict--the main point of the scene--comes sort of out of nowhere. So the scene doesn't feel like a narrative "whole". It relies on the reader having read the prologue for the setup of the main conflict here.

From my standpoint as a reader just finishing chapter one, your story hasn't sold itself on it's setting. There aren't any really cool setting ideas I want to get behind and explore at this moment. Your treatment of non-human races is interesting, but it's not inherently exciting to me. Plot wise, I'm sensing a moderately generic war epic against an Empire. The interesting part is that the humans, being enslaved, probably have really good motivations for killing Lomari, so that could turn out to be very cool. Still, you need to sell me on it and deliver! Haha. And character-wise, I'm not fully sold there, either.

That means if I put the book down at this point, I wouldn't be terribly pressed to pick it up again. On the other hand, I'm notorious for putting down books before they get interesting (the most recent example I can think of is Name of the Wind, and boy, was I stupid on that count!) so take that for a grain of salt

[LongTimeUnderdog]

So Lomari are genetically compatible with humans?

Chaos, Lomari are simply "Black" people, while humans are simply "white" people.  That's what Rachell is "brown skinned" and what's his bucket is black skinned.  Rachell having a "human parent (mother if  I understood the text right)."  Of course they're genegically compatible, they aren't any different from the humans mentioned (save skin color).

I think it's a funny poke at some of the standard fantasy conventions, the characters usually being white western Europeans.   I give it all a thumbs up.

[Chaos]

In the prologue, it was mentioned that the Lomari had a more birdlike skeletal structure, which signaled to me there was something more to them.

[Recovering_Cynic]

Thoughts while reading:

When you say that the ground beneath her suddenly sagged, I got the impression she was falling into a hole in the ground.  It needed to be clearer that she was near some sort of slope, or say that the edge of the bank crumbled or something similar.

Um... when you say "dusky smell" do you mean "musky smell", because dusky means dark.

Alright... I liked the flashback, but it ruined your moment.  It seems a bit contrived, unless fair damsels are in a habit of thinking such morbid thoughts while canoodling with boys.  Case in point, you say that "But none of that seemed to matter as Mel's finger . . ."  This makes it sound even more contrived.  You also don't have any reaction to Mel sensing her shudder, and as close as they are, he would.

Elves... Oh dear.  And they are shapeshifters?  Or are they Elvs... I am confused.

When did Mel and Ravke leave?  Suddenly your character is aware of it, but she isn't surprised, so I think you forgot to mention them leaving, or maybe she should show some sudden awareness that they left.

The first chapter is good, unusual, which is good.  Most of what I would have to say has been said already.  The name "Elv" is a distractor.  The creatures you describe don't sound like your average elf (other than having pointy ears), so if I were, you I would not call them Elvs, because some readers will pillory you for it.

I especially liked your setting.  The trees really set a nice tone, as does the swamp.

Other than some minor blocking issues (which I noted in my comments) and the name which threw me, it was done really well, so bravo.  I would definitely keep reading.

[vegetathalas]

Okay, I'm going to explain my thinking on Elvs a little, just so you can tell me if the idea is worth using or not. This is info-dump world building that matters very little to the plot and is only mentioned to the side, so the name Elvs is kind of an easter egg for careful readers to put together the conclusions on their second/third reading.

The HISTORY of ELVS.

1) Long ago, Erratha (my world) is unsettled except by wild humanoid creatures who have developed the ability to shapeshift and live in tribes. REALLY ADVANCED HUMANS (who also happen to be white supremists and mad geneticists exiled from earth) land on the planet and discover technology doesn't work so well. Part of that is that the magic energy makes plastic pretty much melt on the spot and anything they build out of metal corrodes really, really quickly. (Yes, I know that they probably won't be using just plastic and metal thousands of years in the future, but gimme the conceit that whatever they use pretty much melts/breaks/fails. This is one of those illogical leaps that I haven't developed well because its fuzzy background, so hopefully no one will take the time to rip it apart or think about it too hard).

This corrosion applies to weapons, which is why most of the time, you'll see fairly simple weapons that take advantage of the not-much-metal production (iron is reasonably rare on the planet--which is why you'll be seeing a lot of bronze-scaled armor, bronze-tipped arrows, and that sort of thing later. The province we're currently in is a bit of an exception because its close to the mountains where the best iron in Erratha can be mined, but normally if someone has steel or iron-tipped weapons instead of copper or bone, that means that they're elitely rich.)

SIDE NOTE--Since Underdog knows so much about weapons, I'm curious if you know a couple of things--one, what is the lifespan of your usual sword (say...two-handed steel broad) under peacetime conditions when its rarely used and taken good care of--and two, if metal, once forged into swords and armor, can be melted down and reforged without adding many flaws, or is it kind of, once you forge it once, it's not useful again for anything but low-quality scrap (assuming dark-ages blacksmithing technology of course)

Anyway, the space settlers come to Erratha and meet the natives, who have pointed ears. Thus the humans (who call themselves 'Odd Men"--though when you see the word, you'll also see that it has changed substantially with the thousands of years of language twisting) nickname the aliens "Elvs" as a joke. Since this takes place thousands of years in the future, obviously, language has changed and the first thing about it is that excess/silent vowels get dropped--so Elvs instead of Elves, etc. A lot of the First Speech in this book, if you sound it out, sounds a lot like corrupted/gibberish-esque French or English (because that's what the nationalities of the Odd Men mostly were). Elvs don't like the name Elvs, which is why they call themselves 'Twilight People' and 'People of the Dawn' respectively. (Dark Elvs and Light Elvs).

(Note: Odd Men or Odd Men creations have more metal than everyone else, because there's a lot of steel lying around where they live and they've managed to find magic ways in the past three thousand years or so on the planet to retard the corrosion process somewhat.)

Lomari are genetically compatible with humans because they are the result of an Odd Men breeding program which attempts to hybrid Elv magic powers with human docility + ability to breed like rabbits. Elves are, for the most part, sterile, and more than half of the children they do have are stillborn. They make up for this with really long lifespans and strong regenerative abilities. While Elvs don't make good slaves, the Odd Men find that the regular un-genetically modified humans (the descendents of the so-called 'Ancients' who were sent to stop the Odd Men from ever leaving the planet and returning to Earth) and Lomari do.

But this is all long ago in the world's history and probably won't be explained in this book, or perhaps ever. This is my version of the 'Age of Legends' (if any of you are Robert Jordan fans) so expect that kind of rationed info, dribbled out slowly.

But it does explain why Elvs are Elvs, Lomari consider themselves superior to everyone else, and humans hate both races, because the Elvs run around killing them, and the Lomari are Odd Men abominations. It also explains why the humans are almost all white except for those who've been having sex with Lomari for the past 2,000 years, because they are the descendents of a government that catered to white supremecists. Lomari are dark skinned because the Odd Men used Dark Elvs in their original genetic hybid program. Elvs and Lomari/humans cannot breed sexually, their genes can only be co-mingled using the magic/test tube process that the Odd Men have developed.

If you think this is a cool enough concept to keep--how many hints of it would be necessary to keep you from backlashing to the word 'elves'?

2) These Elvs are also my ironic authorial response to Eragon-style Elves. They are brutal cannibals who consider the Lomari/human intestine the best delicacy and love killing. In the original draft, this is made clearer but I lost that somewhere along the way and so should probably put it back. Originally, the Elvs weren't wearing much except loincloths made of Lomari skin. (Armor is an 'offense' to their ancestor-worship--part of the reason the Odd Men conquer them so easily--and they stubbornly hold to their ways even when its obvious their ways are kind of obsolete). So the race is meant to mock your traditional Tolkein take on Elves by being, basically, the opposite of Galadrial while retaining the name 'Elves'. Later in the book, they make a tree eat someone.

But what I think is a cool idea is not worth creating something that will make people put the book down as soon as they see it. So, unless you're like 'that's the awesomest thing I've ever heard,' I'll start calling them something else. But even if I stick another name on them, an Elf is still an Elf, really, and I'm not sure how to disguise that. I'm leaning toward calling them Vels at the moment. Though since I need White and Dark Vels, that's still...kind of lame. I'll have to think of some way to differentiate the White and Dark without making it so obvious.

Shapeshifting gets explained when it comes up several chapters hence.

What is REALLY ironic is that Lomari are created to be the slaves of Odd Men, break free and enslave the humans, then end up getting enslaved by the (lesser) humans again. Heh. That part gets info-dumped a couple chapters hence as well. Or at least a part of that part. You don't figure out Odd Men = old earth humans until 10 chapters in.

A lot of this worldbuilding can also be dumped in the glossary, if my publishers want me to have one. I have the entire history written out as its been cobbled together by heretics in the Imperial Library.

I'll freely admit that not much of this book is groundbreaking innovation on the fantasy front. This is kind of my 'comfort food' dark fantasy book--as in, old concepts, slightly twisted and accompanied with really good writing (hopefully).

Anyway, I welcome thoughts. You guys rock and thanks for reading and helping me out with this.

[LongTimeUnderdog]

Okay, since you asked, I'll start at the beginning of the lecture.

The term broad sword is a Renaissance term quite simply meaning:  Not a rapier.

Broadswords in general change vastly as history goes on.  Since you're looking at "Dark ages" I'm going to discuss the swords and weapons from 400 ad to 1000 ad (which is being a bit broader then the term denotes) with a few deviations to compare and contrast.  These dates are for referencing, as I can only assume you're looking for more cruder tools then weapons and armor formed in say 1400.

Weapons and Armor:

The first weapons that appeared in major use were made from stone and bone.  These were used for extended periods of time, moving well into what is known as the "Old West" (Native American weapons).  This was because of the materials on hand and techniques known in metal working (or lack there of).  There are quite a few cultures that did not develop metal working, and thus did not develop swords until the weapons were brought to them.   Examples of this are Northern Africa and Native Americans (north of Mexico).

The sword itself represents a certain level of technological and cultural "advancement."  Even in such early designs as those of ancient Egypt, made from cast bronze, it becomes very clear that such weapons hold a significance when discussing the intellectual advances of a group.  Since this is not the desired information I am being briefer on this point.

Bronze is not forged, it is cast.  Early iron weapons were cast as well.  A mold is formed much like a blueprint, and the bronze is melted down and poured into the mold.  When it cools the mold is removed and the weapon polished and sharpened.  Bronze armor is fixed the same way.  Iron is superior to bronze, yes, but this does not mean that bronze is weak or brittle.  Bronze armor used by the Greeks, for example, was easily able to deflect iron weapons and protect the wearer.  Bronze scaling falls into a different category of armor design, which I'm sure you're aware of, so I won't cover that much either.

Early Iron weapons were cast, as can be seen in the horrific movie "Conan the Barbarian."   Cast iron weapons are not bad, but not as strong as steel, nor anything close to forged iron/steel.  To those less aware of what a forging a weapon entails, it is simply heating iron within coals to create steel, first formed into bars, then beaten flat.   The flat steel is then heated and folded over itself to create a thickness, heated and beaten flat again (yes I'm simplifying the process a bit).  This series of heating, beating, and folding is repeated a ridiculous number of times, the exact count depending on how hard you want the blade.  The stiffer the blade the stronger the cut, but the easier it is to break.  The average broad sword had a flex of three inches in either directions (six inches total) to prevent being shattered when blocking or parrying another sword or an opponents shield/armor.   Proper forging of swords gives an equal balance to flex, edge, and hardness.  Very good smiths could improve in these area without taking away from the others.

Can these weapons be reforged into something else?  That's entirely dependent on how well the sword was made in the first place.  There are few "flawless" swords.  Add to that, that the more times the metal is "forged" the more brittle it becomes.  The idea of turning swords into plow sheers, however, is not far fetched and not impossible.  The issue with melting down a swords and turning them into something else is that you're mixing various grades of metalworking skills together and that's going to create an uneven grade to whatever the finished project is.  It's not impossible to do, it's just difficult (having to purify and homogenize the steel, re-bar it, and finally beat it into something else).

How long do they last?  Weapons last much longer not being used then being used, if cared for with equal attention.  All weapons need to be polished regularly, so if that is the case, then they can last indefinitely.  As long as the weapon is polished and "aired out," there is no definitive length of time the blade will last.  The handles, hilts, pommels, and other parts, are less durable to time.  If the blade is not cared for it rusts and molds (because of the polishing oils used).  For example, there are greatswords in London museums that have been around since 1200, still perfectly usable.

Unarmored fighters vs Armored fighters:  It is a myth that armor = superior fighters.  There are innumerable examples of this through history but my favorite is the Okinawans against the Samurai.  This is my favorite example because it best illustrates the point.  In Japan, if you visit the museums there, you will see suits of Samurai armor with foot and fist prints in them, caved in or broken, but still in displayable condition.  Yes, the Okinawans, that is farmers and fishermen, were skilled enough with their bare hands to fight armored opponents with arguably the best weapons ever made for hand to hand combat and drive the Samurai from their island.

History also shows us that, when the resources to make armor are scarce enough, the people will still be able to fight.  The speed of the armed warrior is a much larger factor then the armor he or she is wearing.  Armor, in fact, is only successful when it is enough protection to counteract the speed and skills of the opponent.  That's why plate armor was so effective.  Against an unarmored opponent, the wearer of plate armor could almost ignore their attacks and just cut them down (since breaking plated armor is so freaky difficult).  The easiest way to circumvent things like plate armor is to use crushing weapons, like a mace.  While it won't break the armor, it will cave it in or otherwise deform it, causing the occupant's ribs to be crushed, thus his or her lungs, and ultimately suffocate him or her to death.  A very unpleasant way to go.

Without matching steel to steel, however, this caving in would be difficult.  Roman helmets are more then capable of withstanding blows from a wood/stone club, retain their shape, and break the club.  The mace would have to be just as advanced as the armor to be successful (that is steel to steel and so on).

I hope that mass of info/wall o' text is useful in some way.

[lethalfalcon]

Overall, I liked about half of this chapter. The other half... well, it's been mentioned before--the frolicking about just does not fit the scene we came from, nor the scene we're thrown right back into at the end of this chapter. It feels like you want to show that she's living a normal, somewhat happy life, but you quickly change to show that no, she's not. It makes me wonder what point it serves to have her get warm fuzzies from Mel. Perhaps this is just the pessimist in me speaking, because I know I certainly wouldn't, given the realities of the world pressing against me.

Okay, on to the specifics (all in my not-so-humble opinion):

The first sentence - This really has to go. At least the first part of it. "Fifty-six years... " you're directly talking to the reader. I know it might be vital information at some point, but why does it matter as the first three words in the first chapter? Your POV is different, and the subject of Cien being the grandfather is brought up, so that illustrates that two generations have passed. An exact year is likely irrelevant to the reader. If it needs to be known, I'm sure you could find a good way to show the reader, through dialogue, journals, etc.  Also, it bears no connection to the second half of the sentence, describing the Weeper trees. Did they just now start reigning over the swampland? Took them 56 years? Why haven't they always been there on top? Too many questions immediately popped into my head that are very likely irrelevant.

Your description is holding up well, compared to the last chapter. It's very vivid, easy to picture... okay, I'm going to comment on this a little (almost thought I'd have pure praise there... can't have that). You use "like" a lot. I know the similes are part of what gives your description such vividness, but I count 32 times in 3000 words. Sometimes they're very close together, too. After the first dozen or so, I start actually looking for them. "Ah, another thing that's like something else," I say as I spot the next twenty. You only have two places where you use "as" in the same way. One of them is sing-songy: "as rich as rot". I'm sure other people will probably disagree with me on this, but I've seen you use other methods to describe things, and most of them flow better.

If your linen skirt manages to get caught on a thorn while you're running and drags you to a stop, it's very likely going to: a) rip the skirt immediately, b) disrobe you, or c) rip the thorn off the plant. This is assuming your linen is not some sort of super-material. I know that I've ripped shirts before running past sharp hooked things (nails in trees, for instance), and I know I've brought home a collection of twigs and those blasted thorny seeds from weeds adorned to my clothing, and none of them stopped me. Staggered, maybe (in the case of the nails), but never stopped. If she's running helter-skelter, no wimpy bush is going to stop her.

There are a number of places that you stop using italics for thought-speak, which makes it very hard to spot sometimes. I'll try to mark them up in my line-edits.

Most of the encounter with Baeratia I had no problem with. It had some tension, which is good. One thing I was a little confused about: why would a Twilight Person use a greeting like "The sun rises"? To me, that would be a negative thing for a Dark Elv. Perhaps you mean it to be negative, but then why would Rachell repeat it? Does she have bad news as well? I would have expected something more like "The moon rises" or "The sun sets" or "The stars shine brightly". Something to do with night. Dunno.

And the chapter ends. With nothing really happening.  Hrm. I'm left with a whole bunch of questions. What happens to Shaeradis? She just got dismissed, even though she's bleeding profusely. From the way you wrote it, she was already on the verge of death. Can she really wait for Baeratia to deliver the Dreams? What are the dreams? What made the Elvs go to Ravke to find Rachell instead of either finding her themselves, or finding her father?

This whole chapter seems like it's leading up to something, and then just stops. It's great for a cliffhanger, but especially near the beginning of the book, you need lots of hooks (which I should know having just been ripped a new one for the exact same problem). I know that something is up, but I have no idea what. Some people may enjoy the mystery, but to me it's a little odd not to know anything about what's going on. Granted, I likely wouldn't put the book down, because it takes a special kind of suck to get me to do that: only Christopher Paolini and J.K. Rowling have managed that so far.

And to answer one of your questions about the Elvs: I don't particularly have a problem with your explanation, but unless that's made clear somewhere early in the book, you're going to get punished for it. Writing fantasy where technology has devolved has to be done very carefully. Anne McCaffrey's Pern series does the same thing, and some of how she does it is very... distasteful to a lot of readers. Without any back story or revelation early on, your book clearly falls into the fantasy realm, and inserting science fiction elements later on makes it look like it was an afterthought, even though you've already demonstrated that you thought of it well in advance. One way to get around this is to have Ancient devices (working or not) that point to there having been high technology at some point.

One really bad problem with your Elvs, Lomari, and Humans is that they just about exactly mimic Elves, Half-Elves, and Humans in D&D. Light and dark elves (wood/high elves and drow, respectively) both exist, and are very similar to your concepts. Half-Elves consider themselves superior as well, but everyone hates them. I don't know if this is an intentional comparison, but I can see it.

I have little to complain about your prose, though. Your sentences are generally very tight, and you've removed a lot of early-draft cruft.  Oh, and you don't post often enough for me to read further.

[Recovering_Cynic]

Hmm... I like your history.  It is complex and interesting, so please don't abandon it.  As to the name Elv, well, you are kinda screwed on that one.  Tolkien's world has permeated our own mythos so thoroughly, that if you call something an Elf or even an Elv, a hundred pre-conceived notions pop up in your reader's mind.  While your creatures are definitely not elves, a lot of readers are not going to give you a chance to explain that.  However, there is some hope.  Perhaps calling one of them an Elv, or even thinking the word Elv, is a deadly insult.  Perhaps it will not be revealed until half way through your book that some humans humans who hate them now call them elves.  That would give your reader enough time to be thoroughly wrapped up in your world and *know* they aren't traditional elves; any negative reaction would be diminished (hopefully).  I just don't think you are going to get around the preconceived notions this early on.

As to the rest of the comments about the frolic, well, you did go a bit harlequin romance on us there, but it was brief.  If you are aiming at dark fantasy, you might consider making the romanciness briefer.

[Frog]

Well, I never heard from you if you were able to see the editing tool/comments after the troubles over your last submit, so I shall try to be more specific here. If you figured it out and want the line edits just let me know.

Thoughts while Reading:
I love the image of the trees growing in the ruins. I think that is a great way to show the progress of time w/o directly addressing the reader. At the same time I worry about putting so much of this at the beginning of the novel. It is... intimating? It makes me think this will be a very formal read and a larger time commitment which is only a bad thing because your  characters are more down to earth and your plot hasn't hasn't struck me as overly complicated (yet), seeming to contradict this. As we go on, a lot of your descriptions, though good, even strikes me as poorly veiled infodumps that I don't think you've earned it quite yet. And yes, there are a lot of 'likes.' So great images, but I would cut through them for maximum awesomeness.

Even in modern terms I wouldn't put Rachell at 17 personally based on this beginning section. 14, maybe 15.

There are a few actions here that you tell after the fact where you could easily just show the action. Pushing Mel into the dung heap, her skirt getting caught, and others.

Who is Thaya and who are the twins? It seems strange you would drop all these references w/o any sort of qualifier unless you introduced them earlier when I wasn't looking.

Umm... it seems odd that she would suddenly declare that she wouldn't kiss him. I mean, I know that is where her thoughts were at, but it wasn't any part of their conversation until now, so it either needs some type of dialogue transition or an immediate "what the heck?" kind of response from Mel. In fact, what it looks like is that you inserted those two lines (her declaration and his response) into a preexisting conversation without fixing the flow as the next line has to do with what she said before about the moss. And though I love playful, non trashy romance, this does strike me as a bit heavy for so early in the game.

His son was disinherited for marrying a human? Then who did Cien marry? I was under the impression that after all the death doom and destruction he would have been hard pressed to find someone suitable as well.

I wasn't aware that kittens could blink all that fast since they are born with their eyes closed.

And now she is gushing over Ravke. Are you wanting to characterize her as completely boy crazy?

This is like the third time in this section you told us that she is the heir. I got it already.

I'd lose the parenthesis around the internal thought when the Elv comes in. Unnecessary.

“Your grandfather should learn that the Twilight People are not his to command,” Baeratia said. “Cien aehl-Darenn is a fool.”

Awkard. Something like:

“Cien aehl-Darenn is a fool. He should learn that the Twilight People are not his to command,” Baeratia said.

Would work better especially since it is already firmly established that he is the grandfather.

The Elv just strolled up to her completely wounded like that? And then she seems to be fine just as quickly. I would see if you can build more of the tension here.

Ravke and Mel seem to have disappeared though this entire conversation. Where did they go?

Overall Impression:
Some of the descriptions seemed over the top and I rolled my eyes a little over the immediate romance, but I am still reading and looking for the hook. I am interested in the dreams and such, so we are good for the next chp at least.

I am biased about elves. I love them in many different variations (though sorry, no, yours are not the coolest version I have heard of. Mine are. And that is just the way it is going to have to be ). So no problems there. But since your Elvs seem to be a fairly obvious variation of elves/drow, I would not try to hide it. You would risk losing your creditability as the author as your reader will all catch up with you and figure it out. Same with your Sci-fi roots. Don't try to hide it from me and I am less likely to hold it against you later.

Oh, and since your finished I have a quick suggestion for you. Try printing out your MS and reading it out loud if you can. It was a suggestion of a published author in my live writing group and it is a great way to check for overall voice and flow. Yes, she isn't an epic fantasy writer so she wouldn't have all the pages you would have to sort through, but I have done it for sections of my work and it helps me A LOT.

[RavenstarRHJF]

Ok, here we go!  I didn't actually receive your prologue, so at least one of my questions may have already been answered.  (I'd love to read it though, if you feel like sending it directly: tinik2343 @hotmail.com- no space, that's just to keep it from becoming a link )

So the trees.  Are they, or are they not, carnivorous?  Because you're descriptions definitely point in that direction.  I was surprised to find two young people plunging headlong into a swamp apparently dominated by carnivorous trees without even thinking about it.  Let me show you what I mean:

Elsewhere, the trees grew sterile and colorless except for the blood-red sap glistening on their white bark like ruby tears. But the Weepers bred in Esculiar’s ashes thrived with parasitic life. Under moonlight’s frost, they raised blushing purple blossoms that licked the air with rancid black tongues, each smelling as rich as rot. The rasp of their petals scraping open at night sounded like snakes crawling over fractured bone.
Perhaps because they recognized the scent of her blood, the smell of a descendent of the Mad King whose body had fed their very first ancestor’s roots, the Weeper trees thrummed like plucked harp-strings as Rachell aehl-Darenn passed.

You see?  I fully expected to next read about how 'the trees unwound eager tendrils of vine toward their rightful prey', or something.  It's very rich imagery, but they don't sound like trees.

Moving on.  Personally I don't have a problem with the by-play between Mel and Rachell, except the previously mentioned awkwardness of her declaring that she's not going to kiss him.  Either cut the line entirely, or have him make a smart remark about it; "Who said anything about kissing?" for instance.

I think the scene progresses nicely from fairly carefree to dire portent.  Your elvs have an understated threat to them which I think you should definitely play up.  I don't care either way about the name you choose to call them. "The Twilight People" is a little long for their enemies and frenemies to use, though.  You should come up with a nickname, or simply have them referred to by nationality or region of dwelling.  Canadians are Canadian because they live in Canada, and etc.

Regarding your explanation- this needs to come across in your story, right at the very beginning.  Remember, we can't see your characters except how you describe them and what you tell us about them.  At the moment, I see very little difference between Lomari and straight humans because you haven't described much, if any.  The elvs, on the other hand, are nicely alien.  When you talked about how there would always be an unexpected knuckle, I immediately thought that aversion was something the elvs knew about and played on- very nicely done!

Overall, some nice characterization for Rachelle.  She clearly wants to be just another girl, but she isn't and can't be, and that internal conflict comes across well.  I'm not getting a good sense of external conflict though, other than the tension between the elvs and lomari, maybe because I haven't read the prologue.

[Andrew the Great]

Kill the description of the Weepers just a little bit. I like some description, but toward the end, I was going, "I don't care. I already have a mental image of the tree. I don't care how it smells. I don't need any more of this." It's good, but it seems like there's a bit too much here.

Total mood change from Weepers to Rachel frolicking in the meadows - it seemed a little abrupt. In fact, the whole scene with Rachel and Mel just seems a little out of place, almost like it was there strictly for the sake of introducing the romance. Which, granted, isn't completely bad, but it seemed very contrived.

It annoyed me when you said "Mel's reply would have made a sailor brush his teeth," but didn't tell us what he said. It felt like a cop-out on your part.

Sometimes Mel sounds like an old friend, sometimes he sounds like he's actually threatening Rachell.

As mentioned, when I read the kissing line, I went, "What did she just say?" True, it follows her thoughts, but that's not something she would say to him based on what we've seen of her so far. It seems really off.

Lots of infodumping....

She doesn't sound seventeen. That, and people don't think of someone who's one year younger than them as a child. It's too close to thinking of themselves as a child.

I had an immediate negative reaction to Elvs. Like others have said, I immediately went "Tolkien elves," then as you described them I was going, "What? They're shapeshifters, and kind of weird." I would change the name personally, but it really is up to you.

Ok, Mel and Ravke(?) just kind of disappear here. What happened to them?

The one elf is wounded, but doesn't ever get healed.....She's dying, and the other characters are like, "Let's transfer some memories! Yey!" What happened to the urgency?

"Rachel mouthed a quick prayer to the god..." So is this society polytheistic (as in more than just this god and his sister), or is he The God? This was a little unclear, though it's not really critical.

Overall, it was still quite good, but I didn't care for this scene as much as the last. I would keep reading though, and the plotline of what I think is coming up is more interesting than this chapter was.

Possibly more later, depending on if I catch anything when I reread after coming back from dinner.

[ryos]

The only thing I have to add is the implausibility of anyone wanting to get up close and personal with anyone who is covered in pig crap. Seriously, have you ever smelled that stuff? It's among the most offensive odors I've ever smelt; it's worse than both skunk and roadkill. Ain't nobody gettin' snuggly with that.

[Silk]

Look! I'm critiquing a thread that was already on the first page!

I'm really curious about the Weeper trees, but not to the point where I can't wait for answers. You've spent enough time on them that I do expect an answer at some point, though.

I really enjoyed the imagery of your first page and a half, and liked how Rachell irreverently disturbed the tranquility of it. Speaking of Rachell, um... your description of her is very vivid. It's also making me hungry.

I don't have much to say about the rest of your chapter. Good conflict so far, I'm interested to see the rest of it.

Responding to what others have said:

I don't really care that you called them Elvs. A lot of people get touchy whenever they see anything resembling a classic (if I can use that term) elf. Which is fine. I'm just not one of them. Doesn't bug me here either. It doesn't bug me that their shapeshifters, either. Why can't they have a natural form, yet also be able to shapeshift?

I didn't really notice it while reading, but now that I think about it you could tell us more about what they're wearing.

I didn't think the line about kissing came out of nowhere. Her thoughts while he's pinning her down make it fairly obvious that she's attracted to him, and given their interaction so far I don't think it's a leap to assume that he reciprocates.

I assumed that the Imperial conflicts mentioned weren't exactly in their backyard, even if they were significant (and perhaps closer than the characters would like). I never got the sense, other than that one moment where Rachell reflexively looked around her, that there were spies OMG RIGHT HERE. Mostly this is BECAUSE of the way Rachell was frolicking around.

I did understand that the Lomari were black while the humans were white, but there's also a reference to magic made that seems to also set the Lomari apart from the humans. I wouldn't yet assume that the difference between Lomari and humans is only one of skin colour, though I appreciate the way you've included and set up the skin colour. Right now I'm assuming that there are more differences between the Lomari and the humans than that, but it's true that we don't really know what they are, while it's VERY clear that the Elvs are different.

I'm not really too sure what people have against the "frolicking" scene in general. I don't see why it has look exactly like the prologue, since the prologue was a) a different scene, b) fifty years ago, and c) a prologue and I don't get the assumption that just because times are troubled you can't ever find a few minutes to throw mudballs at your friends. People tend to take their joys where they can find them.

Regarding the POV of the first page or so of the chapter: The start of the chapter was an omniscient narrator (or so I assumed) that we would follow from the grand, sweeping description of the Weeper trees down to something very specific--Rachell and ultimately her POV. It's unusual, but not necessarily a negative thing. Robert Jordan begins every single Wheel of Time book in precisely this fashion.

I think you did forget to mention the part where Ravke and Mel left, incidentally. Originally I thought I just missed it, but it seems like everyone else has missed it as well.

Ravenstar's right in that there's very little sense of external conflict in this first chapter. I don't really think that you have to have your Plot come and corner the characters right in the first chapter, especially since this chapter's so short, and I happen to think it's interesting as it is.

Regarding the transfer of memories: Before the Dreams were brought up, there was something in that conversation that implied that it was also necessary to share whatever had happened to the wounded Elv, and that it was something that was too important to risk exposing that information to translation difficulties and mishaps. It does seem a little strange that it was apparently the Dreams that convince Rachell to go for it and not the wounded Elv, but since the Dreams seem important (Rachell seems to put a lot of stock in them) I'll wait, I suppose.