Author Topic: November 30 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 4  (Read 2007 times)

Recovering_Cynic

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November 30 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 4
« on: November 30, 2009, 05:20:19 AM »
Enjoy.
this is the way the world ends,
not with a bang, but a whimper
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lethalfalcon

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Re: November 30 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 4
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2009, 10:30:06 AM »
Okay, since I didn't manage to get around to reviewing your chapter 3, I'll make up for it here:

Off the bat, I'm a little confused by how much time has passed between the end of the last chapter and this one. Perhaps it isn't too relevant, but you have a lot of jumps already in the first three chapters, so I've already lost my temporal bearings a couple of times. He notes that he's gotten better "over the years", which could be the past two that they've lived out there, or it could be longer.

I'm getting a little info dump here about how to hunt. I'm not sure it's entirely a bad thing. Generally, you will be concentrating on things like avoiding the twigs (and he does that, which is good), but you won't reminisce about how you've gotten better. You're too busy concentrating on your steps and your quarry.

Ooh, a hound. And Baltier's not dead how? If a doe could hear him nock and draw an arrow, there's no way the hound wouldn't hear him from 25 paces. These things are pure killing machines, and as such, I'd imagine their senses are pretty keen. Also, that doe is pretty flighty, so why didn't it hear the hound's clicking dew claws, or the rustling that Baltier heard, and bolt?

Your description here is pretty good (if a bit gory), and I don't have any problem with visualizing it.

When he meets the knight, I find it a little odd that Baltier is too slow to move out of the way of the charging horse, considering he had "but a moment to notice" the horse's condition. He would probably also notice that it was on a collision course with him. Of course, if he didn't notice such in time, he'd likely get trampled, and be dead again. Poor Baltier.

And that poor horse. If the knight has been riding it hard enough to get bloody foam, the horse has either been fighting the bit (and it's chewing up its gums), or it should have dropped long ago. The fact that he's gashing it with spurs doesn't help. Horses foam normally when they're riding, but it's spittle. It's actually good when they do, because it keeps the mouth moist and the bit from rubbing harshly. The lathered sweat is good, though. Shows it's been ridden hard (which is what I think you're going for).

Quote
A knight was sworn to give aid when you ring the bell.  He had to help.  They had helped before.

You?  This little bit feels a lot like you're telling the reader how things work. A lot of places where you give out information in the narration does this to some extent, but this one was big enough that I decided to point it out. I think we all know that info-dumping is bad, but we all do it anyway. :) I'd either flow it into the story better, or nix it entirely and let the fact that he's so anxious to get to the bell indirectly clue the reader in that they're supposed to help. After all, just last chapter you had the one knight telling them about the bells anyway, so it should already be known.

When the horse lunges forward with Baltier holding the reins, that would be a sure-fire way to turn the horse. They do not ignore the bit. They certainly aren't going to ignore it with a full man's weight tugging on it from one side. The more experienced the rider, the lighter the bit generally is, which means that any strong pull will bite a lot more.

So, after the knight dazes him, he suddenly doesn't have to move fast anymore? Why wouldn't he be racing off again? It didn't seem clear that he cared a whit for his horse, so it's not likely that he suddenly grew a conscience and decided to let it rest.

Okay, gore-fest! I don't really have much problem with this. It's very vivid, which I know will turn off a lot of readers, but I've read worse, so it doesn't bother me. The only thing I really had a problem with was the description of Mariana's torso, which you say is "thrown against the wall", but later you turn it over and find the corpse underneath it. That implies that it's on the floor, rather than against the wall (to me, anyway). Other than that, it builds a lot of hatred for the hounds, and for the knight who didn't help. Good.

Something I keep noticing is that Baltier's thoughts don't really fit the mood. We just got done seeing his wife ripped to pieces, and now he has a sword sticking out of his side, and when he grips it, he thinks to himself Silly of me... I keep thinking of a cartoon with a character saying in a British accent "By Jove, I think we've bit it!" Baltier's internal thoughts need to be a lot darker.

About that wound.... If the sword went through his kidney, he has about a minute to live. Your kidney is what filters your blood, so slicing and dicing it makes you bleed like a stuck pig. Now granted, the hound gnawing on his shoulder probably isn't improving his living chances, but yeah. It also tends to induce immediate shock, which means no yelling, no grabbing his intestines... just paralyzing and dying. Really poor Baltier.

Okay, a lot of those were really nitpicky things I noticed while I was reading. Now, I'll get to the deep thoughts.

First: after reading chapter 1-4, I'm finding that a lot of the earlier stuff is mostly irrelevant. Chapter 1 and the first part of chapter 3 show a brief point in time when he's released from prison. This builds a lot of Baltier's character, but doesn't really progress any story. He meets Mariana, and that's good, but you don't get a sense the he really cares until the second half of chapter 3 and then *a lot* in chapter 4. It's a little jarring, how much he suddenly cares. Chapter 2 is a flashback, and that could easily be placed anywhere where it was relevant, such as a time when Baltier is regretting his past actions and trying to change them. The first time I really see any driving force for Baltier is in this chapter. The driving force is good, but now I'm 5 chapters into the book. Personally, I think this should be what introduces Baltier. You get an *immediate* sense of purpose for Baltier. Chapter 1 is just meandering compared to this.

Second: Well, I *know* Baltier isn't dead, because you don't spend 3 chapters on a POV just to kill him off, without having anyone to take his place. However, I don't see any way he could have lived through a kidney shot and hound gnawing. Yeah, you can tell me to RAFO, but at this point, I'm thinking he should be ultra-dead, and anything that brings him back is "Hand of God" type stuff. I guess that wouldn't be all bad if it *was* Asharia that brought him back, but then I'll need a really good reason *why*.

Third: You tend to use some colloquialisms in your writing. This generally isn't good. There was at least one in chapter 4, and I know I saw others, I just can't find them right off-hand.

Fourth: For Pete's sake, choose a method to convey thoughts! Either italics or underlining is fine (I generally prefer italics), but quit switching, please! I get all confuzzled.

At any rate, I like this chapter better, but I think its placement is wrong. Perhaps your later chapters will convince me otherwise, but I still think it should be moved up closer to the beginning, to give readers a really good reason for wanting to read on to find out (although, you might want to make his injuries a little less grave so it doesn't appear to the reader as though you killed off your MC, but again, that's my opinion; you're free to disagree and write a compelling story that shows otherwise). Keep 'em coming!
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Chaos

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Re: November 30 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 4
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2009, 01:50:20 PM »
I'm going to disagree with lethalfalcon a bit and say that I liked chapter one. It's establishing, sure, but it has good prose and good character conflict. And character conflict is sorely lacking in this chapter, I think. Also, this chapter is a far superior transition temporally compared with the others. I didn't have any problem with it.

This chapter was interesting. Your description of the hound was awesome, and more interestingly, I've come up with the theory that somehow those hounds have turned those men into strange, feral things. Your snapshots continue to be well written. Good job. I also loved the description of the oak tree against the ward. Very cool.

I wonder if the Danubians are this disorganized, or if they have an actual army. This isn't a fault of the chapter; I'm just randomly musing. Questions are good :)

Now. While your snapshots are good, and the situation particularly gory, Baltier's emotions (or thoughtshots, if you will, to contrast with snapshots) don't feel right. His thoughts one second are "let's kill the bastards!" and the next, it's decidedly lighter. I think part of the problem is the lack of emotional setup earlier in the chapter. There isn't any internal conflict in Baltier during his hunt. There's nothing that really screams that this hunter is Baltier, specifically. He feels like a shade of a real person there.

Therefore, the chapter sort of lacks an arc. Ostensibly, you want to prove that being in exile sucks. It is a worse fate than Jaksune. So, you show us how gory being in exile can be, and you show us it really is not safe. All good, of course. But, if we are struggling along with Baltier as he's thinking early in the chapter "Well, at least it's better than Jaksune", then the chapter clearly has an internal arc. The chapter goes from "stuff happens" to "the character himself undergoes change", which is a very different thing. It's an emotional arc compared to a material arc.

You could set up the "This is better than Jaksune," and by the end of the chapter, we see, no, it really isn't better than Jaksune. It's much worse. Baltier's past, basically, should be influencing more of his thoughts than we're seeing here. Here he feels generic, but he is interesting. Jaksune was terrible, and before that, we don't even know the full extent of what he's getting into. I want to be feeling that more.

Plus, if you make his memory of Jaksune a more vivid thing, then it wasn't useless showing us about it in the first chapter. It would be important for setting up his conflict.

So really, that's my big complaint: I want to see Baltier. More character, more getting close to him.

Minor things:

Yes, please pick either italics or underline for thoughts. Personally, I prefer italics, but as programmers say, it's the consistency that's the important part ;)

Also, you do realize that you keep naming your files with "Recoverying Cynic" instead of "Recovering", right? I've noticed that, and it's rather odd that no one has pointed this out yet.
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Recovering_Cynic

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Re: November 30 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 4
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2009, 06:05:13 PM »
Quote
Personally, I think this should be what introduces Baltier. You get an *immediate* sense of purpose for Baltier. Chapter 1 is just meandering compared to this.

Actually Lethal, this was originally my chapter one.  And yes, Baltier is not dead.  Unfortunately, because of the events in this chapter, he becomes a very brutal character, one that is fairly difficult to sympathize with (the next chapter you will read shows this quite clearly), which is why I have added the earlier chapters.  It's a fine balance I am trying to strike, so let me know after you read the next chapter what you think about the order of events and how I should arrange them.
this is the way the world ends,
not with a bang, but a whimper
~T.S. Eliot

LongTimeUnderdog

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Re: November 30 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 4
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2009, 09:31:57 PM »
There's not much I can really add to the commentaries about the piece because everything that's been needed to be said has been said.  I will however point out a few things.

Hunters don't nock arrows while they're getting ready to pop a target.  If he's been hunting for any length of time the arrow is going to be nocked already so he only has to draw the string and fire.

Second thing:  The guy waiting to jump Bal at the door way would not have jabbed him in the back.  He would have jabbed him in the chest as he ran through the door way.  A doorway is a really tight space so there's no chance he can avoid the shot.  He would have popped his sword into his chest and then hammered it into him when he hit the ground.  And by chest I mean heart.  Once on the ground he would twist the sword to ensure a kill, then yank it out.  Or cut his head off or whatever.  Meaning, an attack like that is not possible to be survived.  It won't happen.  Everything after that moment will be unbelievable.

Third:  Anyone who carries a sword has culture.  i know you're trying to hide that but anyone who knows anything about weapons is going to say "Hey, they've got swords.  That means they have culture."  So if they have swords they would never be perceived as "just feral former humans."

I know what some of you are thinking, "What about the Celts?"  They still had culture.  Making and using (mostly using) swords REQUIRES a certain level of intellect.  If you've got a sword, you're already not dumb.

Andrew the Great

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Re: November 30 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 4
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2009, 01:10:28 AM »
Ok, overall, it was pretty good.

I'll go ahead and say that I like the first few chapters, but the real conflict starts here. If you're putting in the other chapters for the purpose of making us sympathize with Baltier more, you have to make us care about him. I'll agree with Chaos, I still don't really know Baltier, which makes it difficult to feel sorry for him. You may as well start here. If you write his emotions well at the beginning of the scene, and show how he's feeling vividly throughout, that works well.

I will say, however, that the one thing that works really well with the first few chapters that wouldn't work without them is your setting. This way, we already have some of the details we need to know, like the knights are supposed to help if you ring a bell, and we have a little knowledge of the hounds and such. I would say keep the chapters just for this, but on the rewrite focus on developing Baltier a bit more.

I just thought that I would agree with everyone else that Baltier is so dead at the end of this chapter.

Ok, let me quickly post my thoughts while reading.

About the ravine: Ok, I’m now confused as to the size of this thing. A brook to me is only slightly larger than a stream. You also mentioned earlier that it’s a shallow ravine. So that has me thinking small. But it’s wide, and apparently twenty feet deep. That's not shallow. This needs some clarification.

About the wardline: I know you might be saving it for later, but these wards have been mentioned often enough that it would be nice to have some sort of explanation. I’m getting tired of thinking of them as the mysterious ward that everyone but me knows about.

About Baltier's hunting: Ok, he’s really good at stalking prey, but is bad with a bow? If he’s been hunting for long at all, one of the first things to do is become a pretty dang good shot, or you ruin arrows and go hungry.

About the hound: Hairless? That’s interesting. Never seen a dog that was completely hairless before. Is it just really short hair, or is the hound actually hairless?

About the positioning of the hound: How big is this thing? Head + Shoulders = about half of body is visible in my opinion, not mostly hidden. Though granted, I don't know much about dogs, particularly not fictional ones that don't really resemble dogs.

About the use of the word "poking" to describe the hound's position over the ravine: I don’t know why, but I laughed when I read this. It just doesn’t equate in my mind with the image I so far have of a hound.

About the hound getting the doe: Ok, the hound just covered more than thirty feet in less than a second. Why does it even bother stalking prey? It could hunt down pretty much anything.

About dew claws: What exactly is a dew claw? Is it something that every dog has that I just don’t know about, or is it something unique to these hounds? If the second, it needs to be explained. If the first, it might still need to be explained, for people like me who don’t know stuff like that.

About hound venom: They’re poisonous too? Good night, how does anybody manage to take these things on? I mean obviously the knights have something that makes them awesome, but still….

About the wildmen: Why doesn’t the hound eat the wildmen? You mentioned that they do eat humans, but apparently not wildmen, even though they appear to control them? I mean, sure they could be useful, but if you ran out of prey for a while, your pack of followers starts to look mighty good. It's kind of like eating a horse once your food runs out. Besides, the hound doesn't appear to need the wildmen - why not just eat the easy source of food?

About Baltier's reactions to the wildmen: Ummm, what? Ok, this would be a great time for some explanation instead of more of this character knowing everything but the reader doesn’t. Alright, just to clarify that one, I'm getting really annoyed to see all these terms that I don't understand. I'm ok with not having them explained for a bit, but I need to start to get a few answers a little at a time or I'm going to just get frustrated that you expect me to know what all these things are. If Baltier knows that the wildmen aren't human, and why that is, he could share it with us. Failing that, we could get a little bit of explanation about something else, like the wardline, or why exactly the knights are so epic, or such. The info on the hounds was good, by the way. Sorry to get a little frustrated here. [/rant] I'm sure that part of the problem is the fact that I'm reading one chapter per week, whereas normally I would have gotten this far in about 30 minutes of reading.

About Baltier's relationship with Mariana, specifically the line where he says, "When had he started caring so much about Mariana?": (Yey for excessive punctuation!) This seems a little out of place. He obviously cares about Mariana, but at the same time, he's always annoyed with her. We all wonder why he cares about her, what with him seeming to be constantly annoyed, but at the same time, we know that he cares, even though we don't know why. So that made no sense whatsoever, but I hope you understand what I'm saying here. I certainly don't, and I don't even remember enough to clarify.

About the horse slamming into Baltier: The horse runs into him? And he’s not dead? And the horse isn’t lying on the ground in a tangled mess? I don’t buy it. The knight might clip him and knock him down, but slamming into him, they’re all going down in a heap.

About the reins: Baltier hanging on the reins + horse jumping forward = turning horse.

About the knight: Why so casual after magicking Baltier? He was obviously in a rush before he saw Baltier, so why not after?

About the line where Baltier thinks, "Marshall would look at him with his chubby baby grin, and he would pick him up, and toss him, and . . .": What? He would pick him up and toss him? I can maybe see playing with the kid, but this really sounds to me like he's throwing Marshall. Like across a room. Which isn't good. Consider rephrasing.

What, exactly, does it mean to be venom-scarred? Not that that's not an ok thing to have, but I honestly don't know. Again, this really isn't a critical issue, but it does make me wonder...

About Baltier seeking revenge on the hound: Ok, I can see that he's upset, but he's had a few minutes to adjust to the idea that his family is dead. He thought about that the whole way home. He knows he can't take a hound, and that doing so is pretty much suicidal. I still think that he wouldn't run outside to take on the hound. Now, I'd probably believe you if you said he did, as some people would, but I personally would be more inclined to plot a less risky way to kill it.

About Baltier not dying: How is he not dead yet? Furthermore, why isn't he going to die (since he's obviously not going to)?

And I agree about Baltier's thoughts sometimes being too light.

I'm also beginning to wonder how the prologue relates at all to the rest of the story. It was compelling, and very good, but I'm not seeing any sort of connection here except the knights, and we really didn't learn much about them there at all.

The writing was very good, though. I didn't have enough significant line edits for it to be worth sending. I'm excited to see more!
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 01:21:03 AM by Andrew the Great »
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Frog

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Re: November 30 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 4
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2009, 06:21:22 AM »
It was pretty close to what we read before, but one thing you are going to have to watch is that you explain a few things here that have already been explained in previous chps, which makes it a bit redundant now. I'm glad you took some time to discribe the hounds and wildmen a bit since I am with Andrew on their still being too many things left unexplained for my liking (though I do know what a dewclaw is and since all dogs have them, it probably can be left alone)

I do appreciate that you gave us more background on Bel's character, the main question I have though is if there is much of a point of even having the family any more. I mean, they don't last long enough to play an significant role in the plot other then to give him an obvious reason to begrudge the knights, but with his brother's most probable death at Lucard's negligence, didn't he already have that? Does he really need this extra push at the expense of losing some of the pacing with all the time jumps and such? Just something to think about anyway. I am also noticing that he doesn't seem to think much of his brother anymore accept it that he doesn't want to become like him, but I would think their lack of closure should be more on his mind since this event was important enough to include in the story in the first place.

Good Luck!

Third:  Anyone who carries a sword has culture.  i know you're trying to hide that but anyone who knows anything about weapons is going to say "Hey, they've got swords.  That means they have culture."  So if they have swords they would never be perceived as "just feral former humans."
I don't think he specifically said they made the swords, just that they had them. How smart do you have to be to scavenge and pick up somebody else's sword?
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Chaos

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Re: November 30 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 4
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2009, 06:46:15 AM »
If the wildmen are mentally brainwashed, the hound would recognize the swords as weapons. The hound would tell the men to utilize the blades.
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Re: November 30 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 4
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2009, 11:09:25 AM »
It's not about how smart you have to be to pick it up, it's how smart you have to be to use it.  Unlike a mace, or club (which can appear similar) swords have edges.  They also have points.  Of all the weapons one had hit someone with, swords are the most difficult to use.  If a person savagely picks up a sword and starts to swing it around, the first thing their going to do is either cut their leg off, or be amazed at how flexible the weapon is (about 3 inches in either direction).  Also, while it's possible to swing a sword like a baseball bat, it's about as effective a fighting technique as not squatting while you take a dump.  It'll work, but you won't like the results.

Most swordsman ship (European anyway) is a transition of stances, moving form one stance where the swords moves about between those stances.  Great swords for examples are too big to do any sort of twisting with, so teh blade only really moves along 9 planes:  UP and down, left, right, and angles left going up and down to the left and right.  Alternatively a short sword carries all the weight in the handle, instead of the blade, meaning that you can't swing the weapon effectively at all.  Instead one thrusts it by either maneuvering a person's defenses away with a shield, or sliding around them with flexible twists of the sword.  Eastern sword techniques are even more complicated and are even less effective without proper training (though research can be demonstrated showing their greater effectiveness most, not all, cases).

Beyond the sword itself, without understanding how to balance yourself properly your hits will be ineffective.  The idea of the master swordsman being self taught is really quite silly when you compile all of the mechanics of swordsman ship together.  Axes and maces are less difficult to use (but actually more effective against armored targets) then swords.  This is because of a) how their weighted and b) using them is fairly common place in any medieval world's household.  Chopping wood, swinging sticks.  Though axes and maces have a  set of their own techniques to put to use, they can be used with less training.

Now, I talked to a guy I know about bow hunting.  He said:  The technique used for bow hunting depends upon the terrain that you're hunting in. The desert that I hunted in requires a different approach than a hunt in a wooded area.
 
Quote
The general technique that most people use is to build a platform at least 10'-15' high and wait for a deer to pass under. Deer rarely die from the arrow. Expect to have to track them for up to a mile, following the blood trail, before they collapse from blood loss. Most bow hunters use a lot of bait techniques and motion sensing cameras to keep track of where the deer will be for at least a month prior to the hunt so that they know where to build the platform. There is a lot of places where you can pay to hunt on someone else's land where they keep the platforms up and you can use theirs.
 
The range on bows is very dependent upon the bow itself, the skill of the hunter, and the terrain. I'd say that 50 meters is a decent average with a good bow in an open area.
 
Since the terrain in AZ is so different (Trees only grow 10' tall, and there is very little cover), I've never used this technique. I always scouted the area I was going to hunt a few times in the months before the hunt looking for signs of deer and water holes so that I'd know where they frequented, then lie in wait, in rock piles and such, on top of a nearby ridge. Same idea, but the terrain allowed for the needed height by itself without needing a giant tree house.
 
The height gets your scent up above them so that they don't smell you as easily.
Also check for scent blockers in your local hunting store. They usually sell an assortment of cologne type products that mask your predatory human scent from deer.

Oh, and the arrow thing...
You have to stay as still as you can so as not to scare away the deer. You should keep your arrow knocked, but not drawn. If you are right handed, you would hold the bow, and support the knocked arrow, with your left hand. You may need to wait for a couple of hours, so you need to be prepared to draw and fire quickly, but not strain your self by holding still with a drawn bow the entire time.
Keep your bow in hand and keep in a position where you can draw the arrow back and fire without a lot of repositioning yourself. The most common reason for losing a deer is because the deer hears the hunter moving their legs in an attempt to stabilize themselves as they draw the bow.

Now I know the guy isn't gonna be able to do some of these things (like go to the hunting store and buy scent masker) so staying "down wind" as they say will probably be his best bet.
Well I hope that load of info is somehow helpful.


lethalfalcon

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Re: November 30 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 4
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2009, 12:30:22 PM »
I'd have to disagree a little bit, here. The wildmen don't have to be experts at swordsmanship to be able to stab things with them. After all, most people know how to use a knife to cut their meat, and so they know that the sharp end goes into the soft abdomen. Now yes, they aren't going to be making precision strikes (like piercing the heart between your ribs), but jabbing sharp objects into animals/people has been around a *very* long time (spears were a very common early hunting weapon, after all). Most of your argument speaks more toward slashing swords, such as the katana. Those are freakishly sick when wielded well, but yes, a novice is more likely to chop their free arm off if they start flailing it around. Even then, against an unarmed opponent, it's still dangerous, because you can stay fairly safe just make short chopping actions with it. As far as stances go, most people instinctively know to brace wide when pushing something. You don't put your feet together and try to jab. You'll just fall over. You don't have to be a black belt to understand the basics of how your body works. Is it the most effective? No. Can you put a short sword through somebody's gut? Very probably.

Speaking of which, the wildmen must have some sort of sentience. They have a rudimentary communication system, even if it's just grunting/howling. I keep hearing critiques that make them sound dumber than cavemen. I never got that sense.

As for the hunting, there are many different ways to bowhunt animals. The one your friend illustrated is blind/stand hunting, and is generally the easier way to do it. Of course, that assumes all of our modern-day equipment, which you noted a lot of. More to the point, there are still plenty of people who hunt by tracking. It's a lot more thrilling, especially when you go after larger animals like bear (and yes, you can certainly kill grizzlies with arrows, as long as your bow has a high enough draw weight).

Also, there's a significant advantage these days in using a compound bow. Once you hit full draw, it's pretty easy to keep it drawn for a decent amount of time, and there are things you can do to make it even easier, at the sacrifice of some of your kinetic energy on release (different cam shapes have lower let off weights). However, he doesn't have one. He has a standard yew (or similar wood) short or long bow, from the description I got from him bending it to tie the string.  Longbows are a lot harder to move through the woods with, although its not impossible. They have greater flight ranges, though. Good luck keeping one of those drawn for more than a minute. Your arm will be killing you. Keeping it nocked (no, it does not have a 'k' in the front of it, contrary to most spell-checkers' beliefs) is pretty standard, though, as you can hold it in place with two fingers easily, and prevents you from having to reach into your quiver when the perfect moment comes.

Now, given that his arrows are not going to be barbed titanium tipped broadheads, he is probably going to have to deal with tracking the deer after it's shot. Sometimes you still have to do that if you hit the shoulder anyway. However, a standard longbow with a 60 pound draw can hit 180 yards without losing much accuracy (and can go a lot farther if you're just shooting a volley). Most people won't hunt beyond 50 yards though, even with a compound bow, because the noise of the release spooks the deer. His distance of 30 paces isn't really a problem (except that he's apparently a horrible shot). Since he never shoots the deer, we don't see his tracking at all.

If he was ingenious, he could always make a crossbow. He'll only get one shot, though.

One thing that *is* a problem is where he got the bow. Good yew bows take 3-4 years to make (the wood takes a lot of time to season). if he made his own bow out of local woods, it's very likely he'll have to replace it frequently because it will start to keep its bend. Unstringing the bow when you're done using it helps, but only so much.

Deer scent masks were not too hard to come by, even back then. As long as you're reasonably clean, almost any urine can cover up your scent (rabbit, skunk, deer), and that's not terribly hard to get if you're determined to. Standing down-wind is a must, though. You can always use antlers to try to call, too, but that depends on the season.

If you want more information, feel free to contact me on the issue. I grew up in Michigan hunting whitetail deer in the forests, with both bow and gun. One of my clients is a hunting outfitter directory service, too, so I'm fairly surrounded by the subject.
I don't have good days. I have great days, where I'm a magician ridding the world of all evil, or at least everything I don't like. And then I wake up, and it's back to work for me.

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Re: November 30 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 4
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2009, 03:52:21 PM »
Thanks for the great input on weapons and hunting everyone.  I will modify the chapter keeping it in mind, and it certainly has given me things to think about as I write the rest of the story.
this is the way the world ends,
not with a bang, but a whimper
~T.S. Eliot

vegetathalas

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Re: November 30 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 4
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2009, 05:17:38 PM »
Wow. I now know more about bowhunting than I ever expected to know. Who says teh Internets is just for porn?

Obviously I was off on the plot by a lot. Ah well, you can't win 'em all...

I didn't have any problems with terminology or lack of explaining things, actually. I thought it was okay.

I vote for explaining what dew claws are. I'm not a dog person, so I had no clue. It doesn't help that they sound all innocent when they're on these creatures of hell. I like the idea of hairless dogs. I'd like to see the sweaty folds in their pink white flesh, etc. Good description of the deer killing.

I, again, don't like 'retard', both for its modernness and politically incorrect nature.

I really like the threads of blood going downstream.

"It itched something fierce" is jarring. As is the word 'critters'.
 
I really like the run for the bell. It has great description and great tension.

Do pineapples grow in Balt's climate? If not, has he been somewhere he can see them? It just seems a little weird to me.

The Balt of this chapter seems a lot less cynical than the Balt of the other chapters, such as his faith that the knight would help. That they had to help because they promised to. I'm amazed that Balt, after running for so long, could catch a horse, no matter how tired. Especially after getting knocked down by a horse.

I agree that the intensity of this chapter makes it less than optimal for the beginning of your book, but on the other hand, with one chapter, you pretty much wiped out the point of the preceding chapters. I think you should introduce the family in a sympathetic way, maybe having them argue about starving vs. the hound, then have this be chapter two. Note, I said sympathetic, because at this point, I think most of your readers will be fine with Mariana being dead. I would set it up so Mariana tells Balt he shouldn't go outside, it's too dangerous, but Balt does anyway, so on top of the despair, he also feels guilty because if he had listened to Mariana his son would be alive. That would help intensify the emotional situation for me.

Good description. I like me some gore.

I think the wildman rearing up is kind of not-well-explained. I think it needs to be slowed down, and remember to explain what Balt saw. The flash of hair. The smell. Etc. Why didn't the wildman run him through earlier? It puzzles me.

If Balt doesn't wake up a zombie or a corpse, you'll have some fancy 'splainin' to do. It's going to be hard to beat this in later scenes in terms of threat to the character/intensity of battles. Every incident should escalate and I'm not sure how much higher you can go in terms of bodily destruction.

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Re: November 30 - Recoverying Cynic - Oathbound - Ch. 4
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2009, 02:39:33 AM »
I'm afraid I have very little to say about this chapter. The pacing was good, the writing was good and in terms of emotion I think you've definitely improved from the other draft of this chapter I've seen. (Some or most of that may simply be due to the three preceding chapters that you've spent with Baltier. Either way I call it a success.) I would like to see a bit of a clearer transition when Baltier goes from grief to anger. The grief was great but I think that the anger could be made more of.

Aaand... that's it. I wonder a bit about pacing, whether this chapter is coming too early or too late, but I honestly can't tell yet, so I'll hold off until I see the rest of it. :) Mostly that's part of the concerns I've already voiced about plot and pacing in earlier chapters.

Falcon quoted a bit about Baltier reciting over and over, "the knights had to help" etcetera. I didn't have a problem with that. It's the sort of thing that you might tell yourself over and over when you're trying to reassure yourself, or deny the impending catastrophe, or whatever. Which Baltier is. This may just be a matter of taste, though; I use a similar technique in my writing, so of course I don't have a problem with it.

Actually, Falcon, if you'll excuse me, I'm about to pick on you more than I just did on Cynic. XP Mostly because these things wouldn't be fun if we all just agreed with one another. Actually, scratch that, mostly because I just happen to disagree. Falcon also commented that "Something I keep noticing is that Baltier's thoughts don't really fit the mood", citing Baltier's "silly of me to grip a sword" thought or whatever it was. I don't think it's a problem. For me, inane thoughts like during a tragedy/momentous event/whatever signal shock.

And now I suppose I should actually agree with something Falcon said. An injury like that should down Baltier really quick. I'm a boxer, and one of the most vicious shots you can take in boxing is a kidney shot--because if you get a good one of those off, even a big guy is going down before he ever knew what hit him. And I'm just talking about punching people.

The wildmen didn't have to MAKE the swords, incidentally. Which would be the biggest hurdle in terms of needing intellect to make and use swords. In terms of using them, yeah, you need some skill to use them particularly efficiently, but as  Falcon points out (there, now I've agreed with you twice!) they don't have to be making precision strikes with these swords. They can just wave them around and stab them at people, and they certainly will be able to hit some of their targets. Personally, I couldn't see these guys actually getting into a swordfight with someone else, but if all you have to do is wander around and stab things, it shouldn't be that hard to avoid lopping off your foot. I don't think that the wildmen are dumber than cavemen, either.

Also: Thanks for all that about bowhunting. It will certainly be good to know. :P