Reading Excuses-Nov. 23-Recoverying Cynic-Oathbound-Ch.3

[Recovering_Cynic]

Enjoy.

[Chaos]

A slow chapter. Coming straight off of the last chapter, with its wonderful prose and speed, this felt a bit off. Perhaps I'm not fully buying into the Baltier-Mariana relationship they have going on. It doesn't seem fully in character for him to be mostly submissive to her. Yeah, I get it that he thought he should stop being such a hard person, but come on. In prose-time, this is a really quick change.

We need to give you a stern talking to about your transitions when you're jumping in time . Like the flashback in the last chapter, this jump forward was equally jarring. That said, I tend to avoid flashbacks and pretty much all jumps in time in Rebirth, so it's not like I really know how you can make these transitions smoother. There is, however, a definite problem.

(And on the completely superficial level, your formatting changed twice here. Though in retrospect, the font change to Times New Roman to indicate the flashforward was cool, if I knew it was intentional. We also have an internal thought in underlines near the end, where in the paragraph before such thoughts were in italics.)

I am concerned as to where this book is going.

From what you've said in that plot development topic, I'm expecting a revenge plot. Well, the introduction of Marshall gives me a prediction: either his wife or Marshall is going to die. Probably Marshall. And I gotta say, that isn't particularly interesting.

In my real-time reaction notepad file I made, I said "Ooh, and now we get to compare Baltier's hardness to Jake. Fun! Character conflict is always good." Which I had written right before the flashforward. But now, with the flashforward, this conflict has simply vanished, and that's what made Baltier interesting. We're exchanging an internal conflict (Baltier being too hard) into an interpersonal conflict with Mariana. Which is not, in itself, particularly enthralling, because the characterization of Mariana seems very one-dimensional at this point.

So with that internal conflict gone, I'm not truly interested in Baltier. You haven't really driven home any real mysteries that will be resolved long-term, as it seems like the constructs and the hounds aren't mysterious in-world. Sure, we don't know what they are, but discovering about the nature of these things doesn't seem like a concern for character's in-world. It's just another facet of life there.

See, mysteries are really fun. Having major questions that I simply must have answered makes me want to read on, and I'm not seeing any. If this is supposed to be a more character centered heroic fantasy, maybe you can get away with it, but for me you need more than solid description to sell me with the book. For example, in Name of the Wind, we have a whole overarching mystery with the Chandrian which intrigues me. When I'm intrigued and there's solid writing, then the book is awesome. If I'm not intrigued (I was intrigued at the end of chapter two, but definitely not at the end of this chapter), this could be a problem.

Speaking of solid prose, this second section of it wasn't that solid. I was confused delving into the flashforward, and we get a lot of showing. Showing is great. Then we get a lot of telling getting us back up to speed. This is great for getting us set in this scenario, and is necessary, but I feel cheated. The "tell", I think, could be integrated a lot more smoothly, and I probably wouldn't be jarred as much I was today.

What was I talking about? Oh, Marshall. Right. Here's my master plot guessing, three chapters into it.

Marshall is murdered. The knight, Lucard (who, given his distaste to Baltier, is probably our primary antagonist) is involved in the deed, perhaps even kills him personally. Maybe Mariana dies, too. Thus, we've now gotten a not-especially-fascinating revenge plot, a la X-Men Origins: Wolverine, where Baltier needs to kill Lucard. The next two thirds of the book, stuff happens. Hopefully, during the climax, there will be a massive battle. And Baltier better ride a construct in battle, because if they are Godzilla sized, that would be frickin' awesome. Baltier kills Lucard.

...annnnnd that's it? Admittedly, riding a construct would be sweet, but I don't think this tiny blurb qualifies as a complete story. I guess what I'm saying is this: intrigue me!

Okay. That was a bit harsh. Transitioning to praise: the part where the two murderers enter the frontier? That was an awesome line.

Back from my notepad file of reactions:

If this is the "heretic war", who in the crap are these Danubians? I thought the Imperials were fighting the priests, and Danubians were an external influence.

There is a lot of "then"'s in your prose, but while I harp about it on Erik's submissions, it doesn't feel like an issue here at all. Just make sure each "then" you have fulfills a purpose, and we're good to go.

Ooh, and now we get to compare Baltier's hardness to Jake. Fun! Character conflict is always good.

How did Baltier immediately know it was Mariana's kill?

Judging from my watching of the TV show Bones, I'd like to point out that the skeletal structure of a male and female are different. not that Baltier knows this, but still.

Why "ash-forsaken"? Is this a curse upon Asharia?

I'm gonna stop talking now

[Recovering_Cynic]

Chaos, you have given me much to ponder.  As to your story predictions... well, lets just say you are a little off.  I think of all your surmises, you managed to guess one plot element, but missed the rest entirely.  This is slightly comforting, knowing that my story is not entirely predictable.

That all being said, you pointed out a lot of things I need to work on; thanks, I'll be giving them a stern looking-over.

[Chaos]

Chaos, you have given me much to ponder.  As to your story predictions... well, lets just say you are a little off.  I think of all your surmises, you managed to guess one plot element, but missed the rest entirely.  This is slightly comforting, knowing that my story is not entirely predictable.

Good That was a case I was praying I was wrong, because your writing has the potential to be so much better. I eagerly await the surprises

[Frog]

Good chapter. You had some good descriptions and there was nothing here that would have stopped me from reading. Some minor things that made me pause.
I do not think that Miranda is a believable character at this point. You seem to want to make her over the top for comedic effect and it is funny, but it also makes her seem like a bit of a psycho; especially since you show all her reactions but not what she is reacting to, none of her potential reasoning. So when you try later to show her being more rational, it seems off. And also you have some more whininess in Bel in reaction to this that is also a tad bit annoying.
Yeah, the break was a little abrupt. It also makes me wonder why you chose to stop where you did as it seemed that all that was happening was fairly typical of their life now. Not that it would be a problem for me reading at this point because we do get some characterization and hints of conflict that interest me, but I am waiting for the explosion in the next chapter or so.
Good luck. Keep it coming.

[LongTimeUnderdog]

I enjoyed the chapter a lot.  I thought the couple was hilarious . . . right up until I started to wonder how he had forced himself to stay with her long enough to engender a boy.  And c considering they're both not afraid to kill people, I'm not sure how they hadn't torn each other's throats out by now.  And how does one kill with nails anyway?  I mean, I've seem some chicks with big nails but never nails that sharp.

As to Marianna's behaviors, I've met plenty of chicks like that, which again makes me wonder why anyone would shack up with her for two years.  I suppose that really is the biggest glaring issue the piece has.  Yeah they're stuck out in the Frontier, but so what?  Why hang out together when she's that annoying?  Are her redeeming traits so redeeming?  If they are . . .what are they?

[Andrew the Great]

Overall I liked this chapter. After the dark tone of the last two, it was nice to have a little lighter stuff, though I certainly hope it gets darker.

I agree that Mariana isn't completely believable. I think it's the simple fact that she gets virtually no development, and then we see her in a scene in which she's a fully developed character. This might be solved by having Bal reflect a little more about how much she's changed in the last two years.

The house seems like a convenient excuse for Bal to have survived. I'd much prefer it if he'd struggled hard through the first year with little more than a shelter, then had managed to build a house the next year. It makes us appreciate the difficulties of the frontier more. Plus, it makes the 'frontier' setting more believable. People don't find random houses on the frontier, or if they do, there's a good reason why they're abandoned. If the previous owner died, why didn't Bal and Mariana? I'm a little confused here.

Overall, it was fairly solid prose-wise, though I agree that last chapter was better in that respect. But then, that could also just be action versus setup.

I agree with Chaos, so far my primary issue is the time changes.

This chapter was less interesting, but you definitely haven't lost my interest yet.

[vegetathalas]

I think you've betrayed my expectations because, from the first scene, I was expecting a prison colony story about struggle on the frontier and gladiator combat under the whims of the sadistic guards...which I hadn't seen in fantasy before, so I thought would be kind of cool. I'm thinking like the Star Trek VI/Kirk Prison Colony thing. Or Cool Hand Luke with swords and vibrating blue energy walls. But you go away from that, and I'm sensing a more traditional kingdom vs. kingdom vibe coming on, so I'm disappointed. I think if you'd have started out in the frontier and had him touch the scars left by his shackles, etc., that would have been better, because I wouldn't feel so let down.

From the first couple pages of this chapter, I'm thinking to myself "I'm going to like the Baltier-waif relationship vibe." I like her silent enigma status. From the other reader's comments, I'm guessing that my liking will not last long.

"Deciduous" is too modern a word, too scientific a classification. It pulls me out of the story.

A lot of really nice description here.

The knight's rules speech feels very cliche. I picture the Fight Club guy saying it.

If you ring the bell falsely...you'll be killed, and the next time you ring the bell...after you're dead...the knights will sit back and watch you die again...I see. It's Cool Hand Luke with ZOMBIES!

Soldiers letting exiled women roam free to be killed by various things without even raping them first? I'm curious, because that seems out of character given their whacking of Balt earlier.

I agree with Chaos--Balt's softening comes too quickly. It should be a gradual process throughout the book, and he should spend the whole time denying that he's going soft.

Why is Mariana refusing to give her name? That seems kind of stupid, unless she lost her tongue.

Why is he wasting a good battle axe on chopping timber? Who gives a battle axe to a frontiersman? Waste of a good axe that I'd think the Knights would want to keep for themselves.

Okay, here's where your book should begin. There's no point to the earlier chapters except to impart information that can come later. Flashforwards are universally horrible in my opinion. I loathe them and think they should only be utilized in two cases: prologue-chapter one or chapter last-epilogue. Or, you could use them if you have a really compelling reason. I don't see one, here. Either make the prisoner scene a prologue or cut it, or why have time pass at all? Why not show him struggle and learn to survive? Seems to me you don't need time to pass, except to age up Mariana, in which case you could just start with her aged-up/have kid. You could even, if you want, have a pre-existing relationship between them with a son when they arrive. Or she could have a son and Balt learns to be a father to a child not his through the book. Or you could just start with Balt chopping wood and thinking about the first time he saw Mariana and how the shackle scars on her wrists aren't very attractive...

Why aren't the colonists banding together? Seems like being all spread out like they are is asking for trouble. Communities = safety. Not to mention humans are social by nature, although maybe not Balt.

I'm really liking your clean writing style and the moments of humor. Very Zelazny. Go read him, if you haven't.

I'm okay with the not knowing the gender of the bones, but I agree that just stumbling on a cabin seems waaay too convenient.

"Retard" also strikes me as too modern. And too strong, besides. Unless you want me to hate Mariana for the rest of the book, which I will now, because I've worked with disabled kids and so I hate this reference... Between that and the callous washbasin request, Mar goes from being adorable tough-upped-lipped woman hiding her vulnerability behind her hard exterior to an uncaring shrew. If that's what you want, fine, but I'll be hoping she dies at the hands of the whatnots. My feminist sentiments also get peaked and I wonder if Mariana is going to symbolize a real life woman, and you're going to take advantage of your fantasy world to bitch about her. I'm not saying that I actually believe that, but this thought comes into my mind every time I see the first woman in the book being introduced as a shrew. I don't believe this in this case especially because Mariana was awesome in the beginning (go killer Waif!) and so I expect you to bring her back to awesomeness in whatever adventure they're about to have.

Whenever you say Took, I think Hobbits. Especially Old Took. If it's an intentional homage, it's too blatant for my tastes.

Okay, missed opportunity for tension by not describing Balt's trip to the cabin. I think that could be a good scene.

I feel like the chapter ending could be stronger. I don't feel much hook.

So, my guess of where the plot's going ends up completely different than Chaos', which I'm not sure is a good thing. While you want your reader to be surprised, you also need to give them some expectations of where things are going to go. A general map, while keeping the twists and turns a surprise. I believe that the plot will go thus:

1) Balt will give away his son to a stranger behind Mariana's protests, and then he'll realize it's a horrible idea when...
2) the stranger turns out to be one of the very enemies they're fighting, hounds and construct-wise. He's a slave-trader for them with a penchant for collecting little boy flesh
3) Balt makes an oath to get him back (thus becoming oathbound), Mar refuses to be left behind
4) The trader sells the boy to Jake, who is now one of the head honchos of evil on the other side.
5) Balt will have to decide whether to continue to fight for the country that turned its back on him or join with his son and his brother in the evil empire, having various adventures along the way
6) As he fights to protect his child and gains Asharia's favor, he and Mariana's love will blossom once more in the process,
7) until at last he rescues his son, kills Jake and comes home a hero
only to have the king of his home say, "even though you're a hero, you're still an exile! So hahahahah! And now we're going to brand your son, too, because you have tainted blood!"
9) Balt raises a popular rebellion based on the story of his heroism. He sets up a reign of exiles and...a sequel!

However, a plot like that wouldn't justify the prologue as you've described it, so I'm left scratching my head. Which frustrates me, because I feel like this is going to be a quest book of some sort, but we don't know what the quest is. I'll feel better when I know what it's about. I feel like every time I get a handle on what's going on, you pull the rug out from under me. Not in the good way of plot twists, but more in the, "I'm not sure the author knows where he's going" sort of way.

That said, I really like the writing style and find Balt interesting. I like his cynicism and think he makes a good anti-hero hero-type. I like all that. I like it enough that I would even keep reading past a flash-forward. BUT if there isn't an antagonist introduced real soon (I don't think shrewish wife counts) I'd probably stop reading. My critique reads more negatively than I feel, but I'm not sure how to say it better. You're awesome! I love reading it! I just want to make sure your plot works and lives up to your writing's potential.

I agree, Balt absolutely has to ride a Construct at some point.

[Silk]

I get the sense that a lot has happened to Baltier between his brother's death and his actual exile. Baltier seems too world-weary and accepting of his fate during the cart ride itself, and his brother's (presumed) death is obviously not particularly fresh. My feeling is that some of the stuff that happened in between his initial imprisonment and his actual exile is going to be important,and that we'll be seeing more of it later.

The transition between the scene where Mariana first gives her name and where she's screaming at Bal was a little abrupt. I don't think the contrast in Mariana's nature is really a problem, though it would be nice to see some hints of their actual relationship a bit sooner (you do this quite nicely in the later parts of the scene, but in the beginining all we get is Baltier's annoyance at this screaming harridan). Despite the abruptness, I didn't have the same believability issues that other people are mentioning--not where I got to the later parts of the scene, where you started to clarify the relationship between the two of them. I did have the same thoughts at first, but when I encounter something like that I always want to give the author the benefit of the doubt, and in your case I thought you did ultimately make it work.

My major thought with this transition was that two years is a LONG time to skip over with just a scene break. Seeing Baltier get dragged out to exile is important enoguh to spend a couple of chapters on, but the next two years he spends in that exile aren't important at all?

Regarding the cabin's previous owner: I didn't find it that confusing.  He or she could have been killed by any number of things that would have just moved along after the last owner's death.

Now, I don't find these chapters uninteresting, but given the way your last draft of this story was going, I am wondering if the time that we're spending in the prison colony is justified. This kind of setup definitely does suggest that the prison colony is going to be important, that Baltier as an exile living in the colony is going to be important. You've established a very particular setting here, (one that I'm enjoying, by the way; I don't want to cast any doubt on that) and the longer you spend here, the harder it's going to be to break away from it without disappointing your readers. I'm enjoying the time you're spending here, but ultimately I do want to find that you've been spending that time here for a reason.

I'm finding people's guesses at your plot pretty amusing. I'm not going to venture my own guess, because, well...

I don't feel like there's enough yet.

Aside from the war with the Danubes and maybe the raiding party had some sort of connection, we've had pretty much no indication of what the main plot is yet. As Vegas points out, there's no antagonist, and really, I'm not too sure what the direction of your story is. So far, your setup is fairly narrow. That's not a bad thing in and of itself, but it does do a lot to set our expectations. If I didn't know anything else about this book other than chapter 1-3, I would assume that this was, as Vegas said, a fantasy prison colony story. But as she points out, that doesn't justify your prologue, which leaves me wondering what the connection is.

So I think that we need to get a fairly clear sense of the Plot soon, and/or some good hints in the chapters that you've already provided. Clearing up the  confusion some people felt in your previous two chapters about who was on what side may also help in this regard.

So if I could sum up my critique in two words, I guess it would be "Plot soon plz!"

Yes, I know that's three words. I don't care.

[Recovering_Cynic]

Thanks for the critique; it made me smile, and I needed that.  Honestly, I've been kicking around the idea of not finishing the story.  The are too many character/timing/time jump issues, and it is kinda depressing.  I might still finish it, but what is the point of finishing a story when it will need to be completely gutted before it is even vaguely finished?  I am good at writing, but not good at writing novels, apparently.  This highly offends my perfectionism and makes me want to format my computer.

[Frog]

This makes me sad. I am all for the honest critique, but if you are feeling more discouraged than helped, then maybe there is something that needs to change within the group. I, for one, never wanted to make you feel like you shouldn't even finish. 

[Silk]

*shrugs*

The first draft of my first novel is riddled with plot holes, timeline issues, plot holes, logic flaws, plot holes, characterization issues (and that's what I'm best at), plot holes, poor pacing, plot holes, consistency problems (like the magic system which I changed at least three times while writing it), poor pacing, plot holes, characters who don't really do much, poor pacing, bad writing, and plot holes. * I'll have to do a whole ton of re-writing (again) to make it work, to the point where I'm debating throwing my old draft out and starting new entirely now that I know where I'm headed. I knew that it was going to have a ton of these issues even as I was writing the thing.

* Note: Not meant to be an exhaustive list.

I decided to finish it first and fix it later. I'm glad I did.

It's good practice. Practice counts.

The problems are out on paper now, where I can see them and address them. It's much easier to fix problems that actually exist, instead of the hypothetical ones that might come up sometime while I'm writing. I can see where I went right, too. That helps.

Parts of your novel will work themselves out as you're writing. Things will fit together in ways you didn't expect, or writing will give you ideas for directions that will fit better, that probably never would have occured to you if you hadn't put pencil to paper at all. Writing engenders ideas. If not for this project, then something else you want to work on.

But mostly, you learn a lot from finishing a novel. You learn how to actually bring the thing in for a landing, or at least you learn what not to do. And you learn that you can finish a novel, which makes the whole process worthwhile on its own.

I would urge you to finish it, I really would.

Edit: Hmm. I figured that was more of a discouraged-with-the-project outlook than anything the group was doing. I hope if it IS something to do with us that you would point it out. (That goes for everybody, by the way.)

Edit 2: The holidays appear to be making me soft and sentimental. I think I'm going to go listen to some angry metal music now, and then head off to the gym for a long-overdue boxing session. Nothing like hitting your friends in the face to cure the holidays. (Or, nothing like melting into a puddle of goo, sweat and aching muscles before your opponent has a chance to throw the first punch, which is the more likely outcome considering the shape I'm in...)

[Chaos]

Thanks for the critique; it made me smile, and I needed that.  Honestly, I've been kicking around the idea of not finishing the story.  The are too many character/timing/time jump issues, and it is kinda depressing.  I might still finish it, but what is the point of finishing a story when it will need to be completely gutted before it is even vaguely finished?  I am good at writing, but not good at writing novels, apparently.  This highly offends my perfectionism and makes me want to format my computer.

My advice would be, if you are having doubts, that it's time to write a different novel from scratch. I did that with my first RE submission, and that novel, I think, is broken somehow. I don't know how to fix it yet, but that's okay. There are other stories, and really, I'm far more excited for my new novel than the old one.

Now, if this is not your first novel attempt, that advice is not for you. Mine was a first novel which would have developed into crap, and writing the next thing helped me grow as a writer.

[LongTimeUnderdog]

It wasn't my first novel, it was my third, actually.  Well it wasn't a novel, it was a graphic novel and the Artist disappeared on me (don't have THAT much time, even if I am an good enough artist).  I love that story.  I still love that story.  I WILL finish it one day.  That story sums up everything I've everything wanted to say about everything I've wanted to talk about.  But, now is not the time to finish it.

If you're not excited when you sit down to write, then it's time to move on buddy.  If you don't look forward to working on it, it's time to move on.  If there's another story you're wanting to tell, it's time to move on.  Keep on movin' on . . .movin' on.  Um . . . Anyway . ..

Shelve the thing, and come back to it when it is time.  Or tear it apart and use the pieces in something else.  It's not like the real audience will have a clue.  You'll thank yourself in the morning when you start fresh.  Sometimes fresh is just what you need.

[Chaos]

The key is motivation. If the story isn't motivating you, then yeah, it's probably time to move on (Well, unless you are 3/4ths through the book, but revising before chapter 10... that's the same thing that happened to me )