The Gathering Storm - First Impressions *SPOILERS*

[Comfortable Madness]

Kinda weird but I think my favorite scene might be when Rand wanders into Ishy/Moridins dream. How Ishy is all "why did you come here?" then Rand is all "why did you bring me here?".   Just all the dialogue in that whole scene was very cool to me.

[Bookstore Guy]

If I need a website to recall who in the world I am reading about and what he/she has done in book 3-6, the character list has gotten way out of control.

It really has not.

Has so!  Bookstore Guy agrees, so case closed.  Am I not correct?  (BSG wisely avoids further controversy.)

O.K., I guess I'll try to grow up a bit.  Someone who can catalog that many continuity-related details off the top of his head is not the same kind of human as most of us.  Hats off to you, Cynewulf!  Vtaltos is correct, we are gentlefolk.  Except for Kaz, of course.   

Oddly, the size of the cast doesn't bother me in WoT.  I don't get bothered by the number of characters, but by how they are handled.  There are instances in WoT where characters are handled well, and others where they are terrible.  I read Erikson, where the cast is much larger than WoT.  For me personally, it hasn't been that difficult to remember what characters in WoT have been doing for several books, because the answer is pretty easy...not much, unless you consider brooding and whining (come on, you know I was gonna throw that in). 

As far as editing goes, sure some extra time might have solved a few issues, but that stuff can be fixed later.  I personally think that some of the scenes in TGS could have been cut/shortened.  It was a bit like watching the deleted scenes of a dvd included with the feature film.  A lot of redundancy.  But hey, whatever.  The book is out.  And postponing until February would have impacted sales negatively--not as much as it would have for most other series, but negatively just the same.

[Eerongal]

Kinda weird but I think my favorite scene might be when Rand wanders into Ishy/Moridins dream. How Ishy is all "why did you come here?" then Rand is all "why did you bring me here?".   Just all the dialogue in that whole scene was very cool to me.

That was easily one of my favorites, too.

[happyman]

Kinda weird but I think my favorite scene might be when Rand wanders into Ishy/Moridins dream. How Ishy is all "why did you come here?" then Rand is all "why did you bring me here?".   Just all the dialogue in that whole scene was very cool to me.

It's a good scene.  I'm pretty sure Moridin is lying his teeth out during the whole thing, though.

It seems pretty transparent to me that he deliberately brought Rand there to tell him that the Forsaken can be reborn, but balefire will take them out permanently.  All part of the DO's master plan, along with giving him access to the True Power.

[Comfortable Madness]

Kinda weird but I think my favorite scene might be when Rand wanders into Ishy/Moridins dream. How Ishy is all "why did you come here?" then Rand is all "why did you bring me here?".   Just all the dialogue in that whole scene was very cool to me.

It's a good scene.  I'm pretty sure Moridin is lying his teeth out during the whole thing, though.

It seems pretty transparent to me that he deliberately brought Rand there to tell him that the Forsaken can be reborn, but balefire will take them out permanently.  All part of the DO's master plan, along with giving him access to the True Power.

That very well could be true. The vibe I got though was Moridin was lounging and was quite annoyed at Rands "intrusion". Now you really can't tell due to the fact that we can not hear or see the conversation take place but thats just the way it played out in my head.

[Vatdoro]

That very well could be true. The vibe I got though was Moridin was lounging and was quite annoyed at Rands "intrusion". Now you really can't tell due to the fact that we can not hear or see the conversation take place but thats just the way it played out in my head.

I got the exact same vibe as madness. It seemed like Moridin was genuinely annoyed at Rand's intrusion.

[happyman]

Kinda weird but I think my favorite scene might be when Rand wanders into Ishy/Moridins dream. How Ishy is all "why did you come here?" then Rand is all "why did you bring me here?".   Just all the dialogue in that whole scene was very cool to me.

It's a good scene.  I'm pretty sure Moridin is lying his teeth out during the whole thing, though.

It seems pretty transparent to me that he deliberately brought Rand there to tell him that the Forsaken can be reborn, but balefire will take them out permanently.  All part of the DO's master plan, along with giving him access to the True Power.

That very well could be true. The vibe I got though was Moridin was lounging and was quite annoyed at Rands "intrusion". Now you really can't tell due to the fact that we can not hear or see the conversation take place but thats just the way it played out in my head.

Maybe.  Or maybe Rand intruded and Ishy decided that that was as good a time as any to plant some much needed seeds.

Think about some of the side effects of this:

(1) Rand balefired Graendel, along with the rest of her fortress.  Somehow I suspect this is a huge win for the DO.
(2) Rand balefired Semirhage and Elza, using the TP as the source.

In general, Rand is more likely to use balefire now due to this little "casual" scene with Ishy.

We know the DO needs something... special to win completely.  The DO's goals have remained murky throughout the entire saga.  (This was especially brought up by Verin, and I think that this is an important reminder that we don't know everything.)  Moridin has been playing Rand from the very beginning, and his goals have never once been obvious.  I can't help but think, given the above points, that this little scene was crucial, not casual.

Remember the early scenes where Moridin was trying to get Rand to turn?  Do you seriously think the DO would consider that a realistic goal, given the necessarily resilient nature of the Dragon Reborn's soul?  Would the pattern ever turn out a Dragon Reborn who would turn simply because it was offered out of the blue?  No, those early scenes were designed to plant ideas in Rand's head, to drive a wedge between him and Aes Sedai, to make him less trusting and more ashamed of who he was.  And I think Moridin used them masterfully.  Now that the book is approaching end-game, it is time to move the pieces into the most advantageous place, and a depending on what it takes to actually win, different moves may be needed.  A casual encounter?  With so much at stake?  With such a devastating result?  I think not.

[Wolfstar]

I agree with happy.

We've been told that balefire can destroy the Pattern, if used too much, right?

...

Isn't that EXACTLY what the Dark One is trying to do?

Just a thought.

[Shard]

I agree with happy.

We've been told that balefire can destroy the Pattern, if used too much, right?

...

Isn't that EXACTLY what the Dark One is trying to do?

Just a thought.

I agree I think that's exactly what the DO wants, for both sides to just start using Balefire willy nilly on everything until the whole pattern falls apart and Oblivion is all that remains.

[Comfortable Madness]

All good points happy. I don't see Ishy passing up any opportunity to manipulate Rand.

Balefire can destroy the pattern but rampant use of balefire isn't what the DO or Ishy want from Rand, imo. During the time of Lews Therin both sides of the conflict agreed not to use balefire. However, they both definately wanted Rand to use the TP. Also, upon using the TP he killed two women. Something he vowed never to do again. I think their whole goal is to make Rand lose his humanity. Pretty much the reverse of what Cadsuane was trying to do. Maybe, the DO is just trying to hedge his bets. That even if he loses to the Dragon, AGAIN, he'll be some crazy monster that will, AGAIN, destroy the world.

Ishy has stated before that Dragon has fought on the side of the DO but the DO still lost the final battle. My question is what would the final piece, for a DO victory, have to be if it isn't the Dragon? Even the Karaethon prophecy states that only the Dragon's blood need be spilled at Shayol Ghul and there is no mention as to what side he will fight on.

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul,
washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man’s salvation.

[happyman]

"The Land is One with the Dragon, and the Dragon is one with the Land."  If Rand becomes destructive and tainted with the DO's power, so does the pattern itself.

This, I feel, is part of the answer.  People see a darkness around Rand; probably the DO's touch.  Through Rand, the DO can touch an enormous amount of the pattern.

But I won't speculate much further.  I believe that the DO simply wishes to destroy everything.  I suspect that he cannot do it directly without very special circumstances, and that we don't understand exactly what is needed.  Beyond that---who knows?

[Eerongal]

I don't think that balefire is how the DO wants things to go down. As mentioned previous, both sides back in the day agreed to not use balefire, i'm sure if that's what the DO wanted, the shadow wouldn't have agreed.

Also, if that's what the DO wanted, there would be no reason for the shadow to plan and lie low for so long, instead he would have all the forsaken running around balefiring everything earlier on, before others like rand and egwene became powerful enough to stand against them.

I honestly think the DO doesnt want the pattern to be like *POOF!* and be gone, what I think he wants is to slowly waste and deteriorate it away, which is part of what turning rand evil will do to the land.

[Shard]

I think the DO wants to remake it but first needs to destroy the original. He certainly doesn't seem to mind Balefire being used. Also there was no unififed or official agreement, both sides just stopped using it because the saw the consequences of using it, I don't think the DO told anyone to stop using it.

[Comfortable Madness]

I think the DO wants to remake it but first needs to destroy the original. He certainly doesn't seem to mind Balefire being used. Also there was no unififed or official agreement, both sides just stopped using it because the saw the consequences of using it, I don't think the DO told anyone to stop using it.

While you are correct in saying there was no official agreement the fact remains both sides stopped. They realized the consequences and just stopped using it. However, as Eerongal pointed out if the DO wanted balefire to be used the shadow would simply use it. So, if it were any advantage to the DO to have things balefired out of existence he would command his followers to balefire it out of existence. Point being, the shadow stopped using balefire and they really have no will of their own, as a whole, other than the will of the DO. So, that leads me to believe that the DO was just fine with no balefire being thrown around all willy-nilly.

[douglas]

Most darkfriends are really in it for themselves, expecting the Dark One to reward them for their service, rather than wanting to free the Dark One for its own sake.  Most of them have not realized that if the DO actually wins they will be collateral damage in the destruction of the entire world.  Thus, the DO may want balefire used without restraint but most of his followers would not be willing to use it to the required extent.  If he pushes for it he might get a mass darkfriend revolt instead, and he's smart enough to realize this.  Ishamael would go along with balefiring the Pattern to tatters, but he's just one person.  He might be able to pull it off with the Choedan Kal, but with anything short of that he'd face a universal mutiny before reaching the point of no return.

The DO may or may not want the world torn apart by excessive balefire use.  I don't think there is enough evidence to decide this either way yet.